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OKW Flak HQ Lethality

Does it need a change?
Option Distribution Votes
44%
56%
Total votes: 84
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
6 Oct 2021, 02:36 AM
#1
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 89

I'm honestly curious what other people think of this:

A base structure that is able to lock down a section of the map, provide free anti-air, and is incredibly lethal to anything that gets near it perplexes me. If any one of the British HQ trucks in COH1 functioned in any capacity similar to this, (when they actually needed it because they were prone to getting rushed by shreck blobs) they would have been nerfed to the ground.

I personally don't have a problem with the suppression or even anti-air capabilities of this "tech structure".

The problem I personally have is the lethality of this unit to infantry and vehicles. Any light vehicle that gets caught by this unit is going to be severely damaged, if not destroyed if the situation allows it. I have also noticed this unity has the extreme propensity to drop infantry models incredibly quickly. Granted, part of this is due to the infantry-clumping problem, but I have had more than a few off occasions where units were wiped even if they were retreated immediately. For example, I had the misfortune of walking a full health guard squad into a capture point, who proceeded to clump around a yellow cover bush in the sector, and get annihilated by a Flak HQ I had no idea was there almost immediately. This is a purely anecdotal experience, but I've had many more similar incidents happen over the years of playing this game.

This is combined with a pretty generous range that makes attacking this unit with anything other than indirect fire extremely dangerous. AT guns barely outrange them, and it can be difficult to even get vision to reliably attack them without employing AG crapshoots. Not to mention, they're often just close enough in range to the axis base sector that the OKW blob and LEIGS can rally and throw off any attack.
The fact that they reliably penetrate all allied mediums enough to deter any attacks or harassment is also silly imo, and the high health pool is often enough to buy time for AT support to show up if there is more than one vehicle pushing.

The biggest issue I have, however, is how this gameplay breaks the fundamental rules of COH2. If this structure is put up on a vantage point, you are suddenly restricted from doing any more harassing of the OKW's map points, meanwhile they are free to reciprocate on your own points, and without the extra micro tax spent on defending whatever section of the map this truck has locked down.

I'm well aware this unit is not indestructable and it has some weaknesses, but the point is the amount of micro it takes to oust one compared to just setting it down on a base sector is incredibly lopsided. I'm also aware that you don't necessarily have to destroy this structure either, but having it around, locked down on an important chokepoint makes the game drag out incredibly long and makes it much more of a headache to play.

This unit is a relic of a bygone era when OKW had resource limitations that necessitated locking down whatever precious few points they could manage, when they had no non-doctrinal MG for suppression, and didn't have access to arguably the best generalist medium tank in the game. The rest of the faction has evolved since then, and it's high time this unit does the same.

As a side note, I'm aware that certain units like the highly meta 120mm mortar are great at punishing aggressive placement, but the other factions that do not have access to these tools suffer dearly. However, I'm all for potentially reducing the damage of indirect fire in exchange for rebalancing this unit.

6 Oct 2021, 05:05 AM
#2
avatar of Operator09

Posts: 62

When you put this in a forward position of large map. You'll be losing to defend it. Not to mention its very inaccurate Anti-Air capabilities. You'll need to use smoke, attack ground, or indirect fires on it. Stop attacking it though for the purpose of just destroying it. Besides it doesn't have ground attack to counter smoke where almost all have access to it.

Also, OKW player loses its tech with it.
6 Oct 2021, 05:22 AM
#3
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 66

Ok,i think it needs that level of damage because losing it sets the OKW Player so much back it`s not even funny.

I do not play 1v1 that much but even on there(arguably the hardest mode to deal with it), i never put it any futher than a cutoff point(and safely only covering it and not much further) same on 2v2 and on larger game modes sometimes i try to put it further to provide cover to a foward hq or something(but again only if your team seens to be able to hold that part of the map most of the time).

So if a AEC/stuart/t-70 with support from AT guns could just park somewhat near it and shoot it would really fuck with OKW.

And as you said it`s not like it can`t be destroyed, any foward OKW Flak HQ can be destroyed by indirect fire,if you force the infantary and tanks back just attack ground with your at guns(easier yet if you have recon), and any tank heavier than AEC can go and park near it(if not rear facing it of course) draw it`s fire and even penals can`t shoot at it unpunished since last i checked you can`t actually control at what it fires at.

Ps: Also to your point "This unit is a relic of a bygone era when OKW had resource limitations that necessitated locking down whatever precious few points they could manage, when they had no non-doctrinal MG for suppression, and didn't have access to arguably the best generalist medium tank in the game. The rest of the faction has evolved since then, and it's high time this unit does the same."

It did since i really don`t remember all changes but from the top of my head but, it changed cost numrous times(from requiring authorizationn to shoot and some other changes i think), to not being need to be set up but still be able to get call in`s tanks(command panther Meta days) to needing to both need to be set up and authorized to both shoot and get call-in`s(aside from ostwind and flame hetzer), So i really think it did.

Ps2:Also to "I'm well aware this unit is not indestructable and it has some weaknesses, but the point is the amount of micro it takes to oust one compared to just setting it down on a base sector is incredibly lopsided. I'm also aware that you don't necessarily have to destroy this structure either, but having it around, locked down on an important chokepoint makes the game drag out incredibly long and makes it much more of a headache to play."

i think the only way this unit can drag out a game is if put covering a fuel or victory point(arguably a fuel cutoff but if you can`t get the cutoff focus on fuel) and if you are having problem dealing with one on these positions(hate being that guy)but it`s a L2P issue, also do the math if you actually kill this tech unit you arguably set the OKW Player 240 fuel behind(120 for the one you kill + 120 to new one) or he goes for kingtiger stall which also give you plenty of time to win the game as he needs well over 300 fuel(if he does not have all tech yet) to do it. i don`t think any other unit loss on this game sets you so much back as that(not even base ones since USF/UKF can just reconstruct them and if you losing buildings on base sector you arguably already lost).
6 Oct 2021, 05:23 AM
#4
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 89

When you put this in a forward position of large map. You'll be losing to defend it. Not to mention its very inaccurate Anti-Air capabilities. You'll need to use smoke, attack ground, or indirect fires. Stop attacking it though for the purpose of just destroying it.

Also, OKW player loses its tech with it.


It goes without saying there will be some maps where its reach is not as problematic. However, 1v1 maps such as Faymonville or Crossroads where it can essentially lock down a good section of the map is where it becomes a bit much. Yes, you are correct that indirect fire is very effective, but the problem is that two of the allied factions don't have direct access to such units, and with the UKF it's basically non-existent since LEiGS will basically shut down any mortar emplacement play. I mentioned attack ground, but it's not reliable. Smoke can be good when you can follow up with things like satchel charges or demos, but again, not every faction has direct access to these.

I never found the anti-air abilities to be inadequate. They're good for what they are.

Yes, OKW will lose their tech if destroyed, but they also gain a free, micro-less suppression/killing platform just for teching. It seems like a fair trade.
6 Oct 2021, 06:05 AM
#5
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

go and play as axis and learnt to fight bofors, which are incredibly much more dangerous than a okw t4.

it cost muuuuch less ressurces, is way more durable to brace.
it has arty mode, ground attack, way more dmg and is much less riski to lose and even when you lose it..rebuild it and you are fine.
6 Oct 2021, 08:47 AM
#6
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 536

Bofors is nothing compared to the flak HQ. It's easy to kill.

However I don't think the Flak truck is OP at all.

Both buildings are trivial to deal with.
6 Oct 2021, 09:38 AM
#7
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 707

120 fuel for a truck that gets countered by smoke. It better be good.
Vaz
6 Oct 2021, 09:58 AM
#8
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

the gun shouldn't penetrate mediums and above
6 Oct 2021, 10:12 AM
#9
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 312

The OKW truck is 'inconvenient' when first spotted, after that its visible on the map at all times. I'm sure someone who played more than 3 games CoH can figure out how to deal with it.
6 Oct 2021, 10:50 AM
#10
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3307 | Subs: 1

Being free without constraint is what always bothered me. Imo since the revamp of OKW it should have been made as an active ability costing munition. USF officers may be free to deploy they still cost popcap, manpower to reinforce and munition to equip.

The bare minimum tweek it should receive is a reduction in lethality vs infantry at exchange of increasing the suppression because as you mentioned it sometime it just wipes squad in a matter of seconds and reducing its penetration vs medium. So the player has to defend it and not just build it upgrade it and pump obers because a single rak with the cannon will anyway wreck any medium entering the radius.
6 Oct 2021, 10:57 AM
#11
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 89

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 10:50 AMEsxile
Being free without constraint is what always bothered me. Imo since the revamp of OKW it should have been made as an active ability costing munition. USF officers may be free to deploy they still cost popcap, manpower to reinforce and munition to equip.

The bare minimum tweek it should receive is a reduction in lethality vs infantry at exchange of increasing the suppression because as you mentioned it sometime it just wipes squad in a matter of seconds and reducing its penetration vs medium. So the player has to defend it and not just build it upgrade it and pump obers because a single rak with the cannon will anyway wreck any medium entering the radius.


Yeah, I want to make it clear I'm not advocating to nerf this thing into the ground, because I'm very aware of the other faction shortcomings OKW has - but just reduce its model gibbing ability. It seems almost unintentionally over the top. I'd even be in favour of giving it a slight defensive increase against indirect fire in exchange.
6 Oct 2021, 11:13 AM
#12
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 89

go and play as axis and learnt to fight bofors, which are incredibly much more dangerous than a okw t4.

it cost muuuuch less ressurces, is way more durable to brace.
it has arty mode, ground attack, way more dmg and is much less riski to lose and even when you lose it..rebuild it and you are fine.


Okay, I'm going to ignore the bit about the alleged overpoweredness of the bofors, but bring up a point regarding it.

Emplacements were despised in COH1 (rightfully), for some reason reintroduced in COH2, but were (rightfully) practically nerfed out of any competent, competitive play. Yes, they were overpowered at some points, but I think the biggest justification for nerfing them was that they simply make the game very unfun to play.

The Flak truck is basically an emplacement, but because it also doubles as a tech structure it gets some weirdly justified clearance for being annoying to play against in addition to any over the top attributes it may or may not possess. It, like emplacements, is a horrible design that's either completely insignificant on certain maps or absolutely game pace breaking on others. Oddly (not), emplacements were like this as well.
6 Oct 2021, 13:14 PM
#13
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 797

Yes it needs a change, more lethality/durability in 3v3+. 1v1 it can feel, dare I say it, *cough* oppressive *cough*, but in teamgames it provides an ez win condition if killed early enough.

This building from a killing viewpoint is a non-issue imho. It will be targeted with call-ins. Tactics ranging from one click Air Superiority, Smoke and triple Gammon/Satchel or just mortars alone. PTABs and a few shells will end it. Commandos can also place bombs under smoke cover from certain docs/tactics. Sov engineers can do it too. You do not want Pyrotechnics getting a free throw in whenever they feel like it. Crawl crawl crawl they will unless being vaporised is extremely close in their future. Seen them try more times than I can count.

You cannot micro the gun as it will fire at the first target that comes into range, regardless of how dangerous the other units are. Easily abused with a light tank or heavier to give time for bombs.

I don't know why people think this gun can deal with mediums, it bounces most of the time against even T-34/76 frontal armour. You can write the building off if they can get a med tank in an unopposed shootout with it.
6 Oct 2021, 13:57 PM
#14
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 89

Yes it needs a change, more lethality/durability in 3v3+. 1v1 it can feel, dare I say it, *cough* oppressive *cough*, but in teamgames it provides an ez win condition if killed early enough.

This building from a killing viewpoint is a non-issue imho. It will be targeted with call-ins. Tactics ranging from one click Air Superiority, Smoke and triple Gammon/Satchel or just mortars alone. PTABs and a few shells will end it. Commandos can also place bombs under smoke cover from certain docs/tactics. Sov engineers can do it too. You do not want Pyrotechnics getting a free throw in whenever they feel like it. Crawl crawl crawl they will unless being vaporised is extremely close in their future. Seen them try more times than I can count.

You cannot micro the gun as it will fire at the first target that comes into range, regardless of how dangerous the other units are. Easily abused with a light tank or heavier to give time for bombs.

I don't know why people think this gun can deal with mediums, it bounces most of the time against even T-34/76 frontal armour. You can write the building off if they can get a med tank in an unopposed shootout with it.


Honestly, in any larger team game modes, static buildings and emplacements of all kinds are going to be zeroed in and targeted, ranging from bunkers, MG pits, Brit emplacements to Flak HQs. Yes, the Flak HQ is not a problem on larger maps, but in 1v1, where maps are smaller, it does indeed become oppressive. In team games, it's better to just play conservatively with it so it won't be an easy target for 3+ players honing in on it.
6 Oct 2021, 16:02 PM
#15
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 465 | Subs: 1

The Schwer is ironically oppressive only when it's very defensive, like when he uses it in a very safe spot near his base (crossroads cutoff, for example), because in those cases there's no real counterplay.

Whenever it's used for greed (VP/fuel) it is easily punished and I've won many games by taking out a greedy schwer, so I'm generally happy enough that this trade-off exists.
6 Oct 2021, 18:43 PM
#16
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

go and play as axis and learnt to fight bofors, which are incredibly much more dangerous than a okw t4.

it cost muuuuch less ressurces, is way more durable to brace.
it has arty mode, ground attack, way more dmg and is much less riski to lose and even when you lose it..rebuild it and you are fine.

The bofors has nothing to do with this thread

For once in your life try to stop being so absurdly biased. You don't have to counter every single complaint about Axis by crying about something the allies have

The OP made clear and concise claims and even acknowledged that some allied things could be nerfed. But that's not enough for you, you just have to cry about allies no matter what :rolleyes:
6 Oct 2021, 19:04 PM
#17
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

tell me the faction you have problem to deal with OKW schwerer.

USF? its one of the easierst faction to deal with it:
USF callins, mortar, at guns, easy access for smoke, etc etc

UKF? get mortar pit in range (heavy barrage can easily outrange the most nonodc cpunters easy) at gun, smoke, callins, offmap, howitzer barrages, gammon bombs,etc

sov? at gun, mortars, smoke + demos, satchels, t34...so easy...
6 Oct 2021, 20:04 PM
#18
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3266 | Subs: 1

tell me the faction you have problem to deal with OKW schwerer.

USF? its one of the easierst faction to deal with it:
USF callins, mortar, at guns, easy access for smoke, etc etc

UKF? get mortar pit in range (heavy barrage can easily outrange the most nonodc cpunters easy) at gun, smoke, callins, offmap, howitzer barrages, gammon bombs,etc

sov? at gun, mortars, smoke + demos, satchels, t34...so easy...

What does any of this have to do with the lethality of the flak gun? This thread isn't about destroying the flak HQ

Due to infantry clumping, the flak HQ gets all kinds of kills it really shouldn't. Like multiple kills on the first shot just because the squad clumped at the wrong time

That doesn't mean it's hard to destroy. It's durability has absolutely nothing to do with that point
6 Oct 2021, 20:16 PM
#19
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241


What does any of this have to do with the lethality of the flak gun? This thread isn't about destroying the flak HQ

Due to infantry clumping, the flak HQ gets all kinds of kills it really shouldn't. Like multiple kills on the first shot just because the squad clumped at the wrong time

That doesn't mean it's hard to destroy. It's durability has absolutely nothing to do with that point


but..this isnt an issue with the schwerer. its on bofors and other fast shjooting guns too. like ostwind, centaur, okw HT, etc .
6 Oct 2021, 20:27 PM
#20
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4071 | Subs: 3

Biggest issue with the okw flak gun (aside from being free) is it either misses and does nothing, or hits an infantry model instantly killing the model and suppresses the entire squad 1st hit.

I've never had a problem of accidentally walking into a schwer clumped in yellow and the entire squad dying. That sounds like a 1 off and rare occurence.

The whole thing is a headache but people have tried changing it and relic has said no.

As far as the gun goes, maybe less suppression and damage for faster fire rate?
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