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HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

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4 Oct 2021, 19:57 PM
#41
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 709

I'd say after the formation change, 120mm became more prone to wiping from grenades and rocket arty. The change is definitely noticeable.
4 Oct 2021, 22:33 PM
#42
avatar of Altobelly

Posts: 13

I'd say after the formation change, 120mm became more prone to wiping from grenades and rocket arty. The change is definitely noticeable.

What rocket artillery did u mean? Panzerwerfer? It cant wipe even 4x crew AT cannon. Stuka? It cant shoot in one point, so only 1-2 rockets reach the target.
About grenades - SO OP PG`s grenade -> killing 1-2 soviet slaves and there are calmly retreating
5 Oct 2021, 02:09 AM
#44
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

I can get behind nerfing the reinforce cost or reducing the number of crewmen, but in no way is the actual combat performance OP for its high price.
5 Oct 2021, 11:09 AM
#45
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1

I can get behind nerfing the reinforce cost or reducing the number of crewmen, but in no way is the actual combat performance OP for its high price.

Its combat perfomance is fine, what makes unit not fine:

1) Its still realistically almost immune to all inderect units axis have in the time window it become awaible. Even after formation nerf.
2) Its still awaible in a time frame where getting it is not a problem MP wise and you can realistically just wait for 2CP.

I mean hell, USF pack howi cost the same, have bigger reinforcement cost, dies with 3 models left and cant retreat. While having somewhat simular range and for USF its a bit harder to rush it to begin with.

I still dont undertand why 120mm should have its survivability considering its already out-ranges and out-dps other inderect units awaible at time and realistically axis can reach it only if you either placed your 120mm to close or axis moved his indirects to close.
5 Oct 2021, 14:06 PM
#46
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 392

I don't take issue with the rest but this:

Its still realistically almost immune to all inderect units axis have in the time window it become awaible. Even after formation nerf.


120mm is supposed to be a superior indirect fire piece you pay a premium for. Again I definitely think reinforce should cost more but when you get the 120 the point is to totally decimate static teamweapons play utterly. And really static gameplay in general.

The thing is that--I've found--the only way to really do damage to blobs with the 120 is either luck or having a pair of MGs to suppress. Otherwise you're very vulnerable to infantry actually getting in your face.

So the 120mm is very effective against teamweapons, but meh against blobs unless you get some MGs there to slow them down. And if that happens, you're very vulnerable to panzerwerfers.

So I think it's a good give and take. I am starting to understand why the OP wants to make it less survivable.

It's just that games where I go for the 120mm is not an auto win. Against G43 pfusies the 120mm will get outflanked and decimated if you're not careful. And a stuka softening up any support weapons prior to a push is devastating as well.

And again again, I'm 4 digit teamgames player so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
5 Oct 2021, 14:36 PM
#47
avatar of Altobelly

Posts: 13

I don't take issue with the rest but this:



120mm is supposed to be a superior indirect fire piece you pay a premium for. Again I definitely think reinforce should cost more but when you get the 120 the point is to totally decimate static teamweapons play utterly. And really static gameplay in general.

The thing is that--I've found--the only way to really do damage to blobs with the 120 is either luck or having a pair of MGs to suppress. Otherwise you're very vulnerable to infantry actually getting in your face.

So the 120mm is very effective against teamweapons, but meh against blobs unless you get some MGs there to slow them down. And if that happens, you're very vulnerable to panzerwerfers.

So I think it's a good give and take. I am starting to understand why the OP wants to make it less survivable.

It's just that games where I go for the 120mm is not an auto win. Against G43 pfusies the 120mm will get outflanked and decimated if you're not careful. And a stuka softening up any support weapons prior to a push is devastating as well.

And again again, I'm 4 digit teamgames player so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Well, 4x4 not about skill, so u can leave this topic
5 Oct 2021, 14:39 PM
#48
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 392


Well, 4x4 not about skill, so u can leave this topic


No thanks, but I appreciate yoy taking the time to read my post at least.
5 Oct 2021, 14:43 PM
#49
avatar of Altobelly

Posts: 13



No thanks, but I appreciate yoy taking the time to read my post at least.

You are obviously dont understand problem.
5 Oct 2021, 14:49 PM
#50
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 392


You are obviously dont understand problem.


Tell me what I'm not understanding. I already said I think it definitely needs a higher reinforce cost and that I understand why OP wants to nerf the survivability. So what exactly am I not understanding here. Or did you just want to be needlessly hostile because I said that I play 4v4?
5 Oct 2021, 14:56 PM
#51
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1171


You are obviously dont understand problem.


Outside of ranting you havent contributed anything to fixing the problem. Let alone understand it yourself. You are in no position to tell others to go away.

Its just 120mm op thus nerf. And leig etc weak.

5 Oct 2021, 15:30 PM
#52
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 709


What rocket artillery did u mean? Panzerwerfer? It cant wipe even 4x crew AT cannon. Stuka? It cant shoot in one point, so only 1-2 rockets reach the target.
About grenades - SO OP PG`s grenade -> killing 1-2 soviet slaves and there are calmly retreating

learn how to use Stuka.
5 Oct 2021, 16:24 PM
#53
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1

...


I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work.

There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter". This problem only leads to the fact that soviet players can get 120mm mortar closer to the frontline, effectively neutralising the fact that its auto-fire range was nerfed. Or if there are mass enemy indirects\inf to stay at safe range and use barrage.

And speaking of situations you've discribed, yes its true that its less effective against blobs, but the problem is that in teamgames soviets already abusing maxims themselfs on a line maps or use penal blobs themselfs into 120mm mortars.
With maxims its self-explanatory, with Penals even if Ostheer\OKW goes full gren\volks build, you just need to stay in cover with your penals and zone volks\grens away from your 120mm, because they cant push penals into close\mid range and 120mm mortar in long fire-fights will eventually hit them.

In vacuum yes, 120mm is vulnerable to flanks and mass inf, but on practice its really hard to get to it. By the time soviets can call-in 120mm mortars both Ost\OKW dont have properly established army to orginize such pushes, which can "just" overhelm. They might be able to out-play soviet player, but its a question of a player skill which is irrelevant on the topic.

And even if you somehow managed to flank and push, soviet player still have 4 models to spare + retreat button on top of it.

Situation is becoming even more ludacris when you add supporting teammates.

I mean sure Panzerwerfers can counter it, Stuka can counter it somewhat, but what difference it makes if you are unchallanged for at least 1\3 of the game (without stuka around for even more). Which on its own just allows you to snowball like crazy.
5 Oct 2021, 16:30 PM
#54
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2601 | Subs: 2

I think in general it is fine. I found it sometimes hard to catch when retreating.
It has one model less than the normal Soviet mortar to compensate that it also needs one crew member less to operate. I think the "issue", if there is one, would be that the additional range for the barrage allows you to put it into a safer spot, making it harder for tanks and infantry to properly counter push.

Again, IF there really is an issue, I'd suggest a slight RA nerf for the crew.
This means that a Soviet player with good micro won't feel a big difference, but also that good infantry pushes to the mortar get rewarded more regularly.
5 Oct 2021, 18:25 PM
#55
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 320



I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work.

There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter". This problem only leads to the fact that soviet players can get 120mm mortar closer to the frontline, effectively neutralising the fact that its auto-fire range was nerfed. Or if there are mass enemy indirects\inf to stay at safe range and use barrage.

And speaking of situations you've discribed, yes its true that its less effective against blobs, but the problem is that in teamgames soviets already abusing maxims themselfs on a line maps or use penal blobs themselfs into 120mm mortars.
With maxims its self-explanatory, with Penals even if Ostheer\OKW goes full gren\volks build, you just need to stay in cover with your penals and zone volks\grens away from your 120mm, because they cant push penals into close\mid range and 120mm mortar in long fire-fights will eventually hit them.

In vacuum yes, 120mm is vulnerable to flanks and mass inf, but on practice its really hard to get to it. By the time soviets can call-in 120mm mortars both Ost\OKW dont have properly established army to orginize such pushes, which can "just" overhelm. They might be able to out-play soviet player, but its a question of a player skill which is irrelevant on the topic.

And even if you somehow managed to flank and push, soviet player still have 4 models to spare + retreat button on top of it.

Situation is becoming even more ludacris when you add supporting teammates.

I mean sure Panzerwerfers can counter it, Stuka can counter it somewhat, but what difference it makes if you are unchallanged for at least 1\3 of the game (without stuka around for even more). Which on its own just allows you to snowball like crazy.


Just theory crafting, as Ost have you tried making the mortar halftrack. They hit the field at the same time and the halftrack is more mobile so you should be able to keep pressure up. As OKW maybe the fire rounds I know it is doctrinal but it should constantly force the mortar to move which makes it fairly useless.
5 Oct 2021, 19:36 PM
#56
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 840 | Subs: 1



Just theory crafting, as Ost have you tried making the mortar halftrack. They hit the field at the same time and the halftrack is more mobile so you should be able to keep pressure up. As OKW maybe the fire rounds I know it is doctrinal but it should constantly force the mortar to move which makes it fairly useless.


MortarHT works to some extend, its not a hard counter or meanigfull counter, but works for sure better then regular GwR. It can sustain more punishment from from 120mm themselfs, but its somewhat map dependant, since it still has to get relatively close to the front line to shoot at 120mm and if the map is oppened it might get shot by AT gun\AT inf.

My main complain - I dont like commanders MH is present in. While I have them in loadout for the accasions when I know I wont be able to survive without it, but still not my cup of tea.

As for OKW, fire rounds also work decently well (at least better then regular barrage) but they will bleed your muni really bad in a long run, considering that you will be firing them constantly. And if there is USF\UKF player supporting soviets with forward reinforcement platform or M5 later into the game, they wont do much.

Also the thing is, while both MH\Fire rounds are some what all right, but they wont give you that much of advantage. I mean sure, it will have something to fight 120mm back and soviet player might not be able to completly brain AFK with them. But all this for a cost of picking specific commander early, in order to just give soviet player a nose bleed at best is a so-so chose, if you ask me.

Especially considering that all commanders with 120mm mortar give you something good for early, mid and late game and 120mm itself is not a selling point of the commanders.

Thats my imo.
5 Oct 2021, 20:41 PM
#57
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 320



MortarHT works to some extend, its not a hard counter or meanigfull counter, but works for sure better then regular GwR. It can sustain more punishment from from 120mm themselfs, but its somewhat map dependant, since it still has to get relatively close to the front line to shoot at 120mm and if the map is oppened it might get shot by AT gun\AT inf.

My main complain - I dont like commanders MH is present in. While I have them in loadout for the accasions when I know I wont be able to survive without it, but still not my cup of tea.

As for OKW, fire rounds also work decently well (at least better then regular barrage) but they will bleed your muni really bad in a long run, considering that you will be firing them constantly. And if there is USF\UKF player supporting soviets with forward reinforcement platform or M5 later into the game, they wont do much.

Also the thing is, while both MH\Fire rounds are some what all right, but they wont give you that much of advantage. I mean sure, it will have something to fight 120mm back and soviet player might not be able to completly brain AFK with them. But all this for a cost of picking specific commander early, in order to just give soviet player a nose bleed at best is a so-so chose, if you ask me.

Especially considering that all commanders with 120mm mortar give you something good for early, mid and late game and 120mm itself is not a selling point of the commanders.

Thats my imo.


The other thing that could be worth trying is cloak units like stormtroopers and ambush camo. As OKW i think the only option is Falls however they should be able to wipe them fairly easy. Like others have said before the real issue is 4v4 maps are to small to pull off good flanks.
5 Oct 2021, 20:54 PM
#58
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 709


..

the best way to counter it is with Stuka. The soft counter is just skip on HMGs and mortars, or get 1 to cover your flaks. Get an aggressive commander, preferably with smoke bombs and just roll over the SOV guy.

As for the unit, imo the popcap should be bigger, to punish spamming. I can't say it is OP, but it is definitely strong.
6 Oct 2021, 04:15 AM
#59
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 536



I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work.

There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter".

Don't want to be rude here but this is nonsense. You're blowing it out of all proportion, I almost feel like telling you to get a grip on reality.

You can deal with it in a hundred ways, it is not that hard to do. Nowhere near 'almost impossible'.
6 Oct 2021, 11:45 AM
#60
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 323

120mm mortar is in a fine spot. I think the recent range nerf was a good fix for the unit. Its still deadly but a tad more vulnerably.

Its a doctrinal unit so it should be decently good if its going to occupy a doctrine slot. Comparing it to non-doctrinal and non-Soviet units is not a great comparison.

To me: The 120mm occupies a unique spot in the early to mid-game where it comes after mortars and its better than mortars but it will be beaten by anything that comes after it. Such as heavy artillery, tanks, and rocket artillery. It gets hard countered by rocket arty which OKW can get out fairly early. It definitely has a healthy amount of dominance on the battlefield if you can get it out early but that dominance doesn't last forever. It will get one-upped eventually.

I would say the dominance is similar to light vehicles. Ost get their 222 at the earliest but its beaten by every other light vehicle that come out slightly latter. In the same way, light vehicles dominate the battlefield until something better comes along. Same with the 120mm. While its tough to play against the 120mm mortar especially as Ost, just remember the dominance doesn't last forever. It also locks them into one or two Commanders so you can have a predictable game if you know what to expect.
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