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HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

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6 Oct 2021, 11:56 AM
#61
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 904 | Subs: 1


the best way to counter it is with Stuka. The soft counter is just skip on HMGs and mortars, or get 1 to cover your flaks. Get an aggressive commander, preferably with smoke bombs and just roll over the SOV guy.
As for the unit, imo the popcap should be bigger, to punish spamming. I can't say it is OP, but it is definitely strong.

Well yes and no. I'd say trying to counter 120mm with stuka specifically is a bad idea, since it has long CD and even if you de-crew 120mm soviet will just crew it back. Stuka helps soften soviets defence which might allow you to push and at least force 120mm away.

And 120mm is not OP in a sence of perfomance. Its imo just overtuned for the timing and stats it has. If it was a little bit weaker surviability wise or came like not at 2CP but at 3CP, it might have been completly fine.
6 Oct 2021, 13:39 PM
#62
avatar of Altobelly

Posts: 14

Situation from my game that happened yesterday:
Flanked 120mm by 2 squads of PGrens, grenades out and CQC. 120mm team really dont give a f...k about 2 PGrens, just retreating.
I think, that mortar, which better in range, damage, abilities than stock 82mm team, must havent survivability like a god damn terminator. Strong long range unit virtually immortal for flanking by Axis assault units! If we imagine same situation, when GrW or ISG get flanked by 2 squads of conscripts - it well be death sentence for artillery team.
6 Oct 2021, 15:37 PM
#63
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 560

Situation from my game that happened yesterday:
Flanked 120mm by 2 squads of PGrens, grenades out and CQC. 120mm team really dont give a f...k about 2 PGrens, just retreating.
I think, that mortar, which better in range, damage, abilities than stock 82mm team, must havent survivability like a god damn terminator. Strong long range unit virtually immortal for flanking by Axis assault units! If we imagine same situation, when GrW or ISG get flanked by 2 squads of conscripts - it well be death sentence for artillery team.

Were not interested in playing in your head games mate.
6 Oct 2021, 16:19 PM
#64
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748


Well yes and no. I'd say trying to counter 120mm with stuka specifically is a bad idea, since it has long CD and even if you de-crew 120mm soviet will just crew it back. Stuka helps soften soviets defence which might allow you to push and at least force 120mm away.

And 120mm is not OP in a sence of perfomance. Its imo just overtuned for the timing and stats it has. If it was a little bit weaker surviability wise or came like not at 2CP but at 3CP, it might have been completly fine.

it is still hard to kill though and with vet can be very annoying. Imo such mortar could use some deploying/packing time nerf, maybe even retreat option removal. I actually agree with OP, that it is somewhat a braindead support weapon. I use it a lot lately in 2v2 and it is really hard to lose, unless you brainAFK'ed or got rekt by a Stuka zu fus

But at the same time I don't want it to be nerfed, because 4v4 folks already have it very tough and it helps there a lot.
6 Oct 2021, 17:40 PM
#65
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 904 | Subs: 1


I use it a lot lately in 2v2 and it is really hard to lose, unless you brainAFK'ed or got rekt by a Stuka zu fus


Thats pretty much my point. I wasnt proposing any major changes to its combat perfomance and be just as strong in right hands combat wise, but it should be just easier to pushing at least if enemy gets cocky or plays wrong with it.

Because right now, there is really not much you can do about it, but to either outplay your opponent\use Stuka or rely on enemy making a somesort of a mistake.
6 Oct 2021, 22:01 PM
#66
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 373



Thats pretty much my point. I wasnt proposing any major changes to its combat perfomance and be just as strong in right hands combat wise, but it should be just easier to pushing at least if enemy gets cocky or plays wrong with it.

Because right now, there is really not much you can do about it, but to either outplay your opponent\use Stuka or rely on enemy making a somesort of a mistake.


Was thinking about you during an earlier game today. Had double mortars against a Ost turtler 1v1, I got cocky and in the middle of bombarding him he got me with a rifle nade. Mortar survived and retreated while I pushed him back.
7 Oct 2021, 07:13 AM
#67
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 560



Was thinking about you during an earlier game today. Had double mortars against a Ost turtler 1v1, I got cocky and in the middle of bombarding him he got me with a rifle nade. Mortar survived and retreated while I pushed him back.

And if it had died... would you have been able to go back and re-crew it?

These silly situational examples are the bane of this forums' balance talks.
7 Oct 2021, 11:02 AM
#68
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 373


And if it had died... would you have been able to go back and re-crew it?

These silly situational examples are the bane of this forums' balance talks.


Was on Faymonville, right outside of my base so I could have recrewed it, my most recent replay posted.

For more context, the guy decided to play very turtley, I saw he had built a reinforce bunker behind central house and he also built 2 mg. Outside of his gas and central building he did not push, he was building mines and trying to make his own little fort. Due to his passive nature I am floating massive MP so I go for double mortars and a squad of Shock Troopers after that.

He had multiple chances to counter
1. He had access to mortars but never made them, he also had mortar HT available but he never choose commander
2. I have no mg since I went T1, he could push at any time
3. He never made LV, would have forced a Penal to get PTRS giving him INF advantage

The point of the post was that I chuckled when it happened because I saw in real time what Gachi was talking about, however at no point was the unit itself OP. The opponent refused to change their strategy and paid for it which seems to be part of the problem. A lot of people don't want to deviate from what they are used to.
7 Oct 2021, 16:26 PM
#69
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5277


Well yes and no. I'd say trying to counter 120mm with stuka specifically is a bad idea, since it has long CD and even if you de-crew 120mm soviet will just crew it back. Stuka helps soften soviets defence which might allow you to push and at least force 120mm away.

And 120mm is not OP in a sence of perfomance. Its imo just overtuned for the timing and stats it has. If it was a little bit weaker surviability wise or came like not at 2CP but at 3CP, it might have been completly fine.

I've always felt that doctrinal units should be built. That gives a lot more control over their balance via build time and tieing up production and resources while it's built. It also eliminates the "panic" call in where you instantly have a unit if you need it
7 Oct 2021, 18:13 PM
#70
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 543


I've always felt that doctrinal units should be built. That gives a lot more control over their balance via build time and tieing up production and resources while it's built. It also eliminates the "panic" call in where you instantly have a unit if you need it


I'm pretty sure that this used to be the case. Except the units got replaced. Supposedly penals were literally a "placeholder" for elite troops, (Meaning you'd have to tech T1 in order to get Shocks or Guards, and once you picked a doctrine you couldn't make the stock version any more.) that's the reason they weren't given a purpose for a long time if I understand correctly.
7 Oct 2021, 19:39 PM
#71
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 560




The point of the post was that I chuckled when it happened because I saw in real time what Gachi was talking about, however at no point was the unit itself OP. The opponent refused to change their strategy and paid for it which seems to be part of the problem. A lot of people don't want to deviate from what they are used to.

Sounds like you deserved the win ;)
7 Oct 2021, 22:45 PM
#72
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 748


....

Nice, I made a nice comprehensive post-responce and got rekt by a log out, when I clicked "Reply" :guyokay:

But in short: combination of performance and survivability of the unit is too good and I don't think this unit is an issue in 1v1. Currently imo it is the best mobile light indirect in the game by far, while having no weaknesses whatsoever.
7 Oct 2021, 23:43 PM
#73
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2



I'm pretty sure that this used to be the case. Except the units got replaced. Supposedly penals were literally a "placeholder" for elite troops, (Meaning you'd have to tech T1 in order to get Shocks or Guards, and once you picked a doctrine you couldn't make the stock version any more.) that's the reason they weren't given a purpose for a long time if I understand correctly.


This is not the case. More units used to be call-in, for example, the T-34/85 used to only be called in via a bundle for 2x T-34/85 locked behind a CP gate. Then Advanced Warfare doctrine allowed the call-in of only a single T-34/85. Eventually when the balance team had their say it became standardized as a single-entity 0cp buildable.

Also, Penals were intended as elite infantry of a specific doctrine. The original concept was to have only three 'doctrines' (called armies) similar to CoH1: Shock, Guards, and NKVD, each with their own respective elite infantry. You can find some unused 'unit ready' lines encoded in call-in format (like Shocks and Guards) for Penals in the game files. This concept was cut in favor of the commander system. Penals were then included in the stock roster as a rough equivalent of Panzergrenadiers; the comparison has never been perfect, but the two have been made somewhat closer in function over the years (mid-ranged AI specialist with AT upgrade and a big explosive ability).
8 Oct 2021, 00:56 AM
#74
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 373


Nice, I made a nice comprehensive post-responce and got rekt by a log out, when I clicked "Reply" :guyokay:

But in short: combination of performance and survivability of the unit is too good and I don't think this unit is an issue in 1v1. Currently imo it is the best mobile light indirect in the game by far, while having no weaknesses whatsoever.


I agree, its survivability is absurd for how hard it hits. 1v1 no big deal, maybe even 2v2, but once mg walls can be made it most cancerous.

I personally think raks are similar, they themselves are not great but the ability to fuck up bad and just 1 click retreat out of a mistake is dumb. To combat the actual survivability of the unit i think there should be a pak up delay when retreat is issued. Anywhere from 1/2 second to a full second before the unit begins retreat animation. OR maybe slow down the packing up of the weapon animation if that is possible.
8 Oct 2021, 12:19 PM
#75
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


What rocket artillery did u mean? Panzerwerfer? It cant wipe even 4x crew AT cannon. Stuka? It cant shoot in one point, so only 1-2 rockets reach the target.
About grenades - SO OP PG`s grenade -> killing 1-2 soviet slaves and there are calmly retreating

Have you tried learning to use it and accepting its not max range katyusha?

Drive to about 50 range and it'll nuke any weapon team with no effort.
8 Oct 2021, 12:51 PM
#76
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1

the panzerwerfer is good and vastly underestimated because people fire it at maximum range and expect to kill the entire enemy army, instead of doing minimum range firing and essentially insta killing whatever they catch in the blast
[regarding katitof's post above]


8 Oct 2021, 13:32 PM
#77
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 543

This is not the case. More units used to be call-in...


I knew more units used to be call ins but I thought that even before that they replaced the respective stock units in tech structures. Fair enough. It would have been an interesting way to do things though imo.
8 Oct 2021, 16:29 PM
#78
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5277



I'm pretty sure that this used to be the case. Except the units got replaced. Supposedly penals were literally a "placeholder" for elite troops, (Meaning you'd have to tech T1 in order to get Shocks or Guards, and once you picked a doctrine you couldn't make the stock version any more.) that's the reason they weren't given a purpose for a long time if I understand correctly.

You are correct, early in the beta doctrinal units replaced core units, I'd have them built alongside like the t34/85 for units that should be "rushable" and like the wehr skirt p4 for units that find themselves with split tech (120mm would be in t0 for example, so it can still support a T1 build)
. Unlocked with CP like now, but required to be built, delaying it slightly
8 Oct 2021, 16:32 PM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5277



I agree, its survivability is absurd for how hard it hits. 1v1 no big deal, maybe even 2v2, but once mg walls can be made it most cancerous.

I personally think raks are similar, they themselves are not great but the ability to fuck up bad and just 1 click retreat out of a mistake is dumb. To combat the actual survivability of the unit i think there should be a pak up delay when retreat is issued. Anywhere from 1/2 second to a full second before the unit begins retreat animation. OR maybe slow down the packing up of the weapon animation if that is possible.

Frankly, you could even just remove retreat fr it entirely... The other long range indirect don't have retreat (leig, pak howi, erm... Mortar pit) and they manage fine
8 Oct 2021, 17:55 PM
#80
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 587 | Subs: 1


Frankly, you could even just remove retreat fr it entirely... The other long range indirect don't have retreat (leig, pak howi, erm... Mortar pit) and they manage fine


but both factions that have long range indirects have non-doc forward retreat points and both indirects are cheaper than the mortar

as long as the price goes down thats an alright change, otherwise hell nah
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