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russian armor

USA scotts (M8A1)

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How do you feel about scotts?
Option Distribution Votes
30%
27%
43%
What would you change to balance this unit?
Option Distribution Votes
5%
21%
3%
11%
26%
34%
The Scott is fine, just in combination with Airborne its broken tactic
Option Distribution Votes
12%
20%
68%
Total votes: 280
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
11 Sep 2021, 22:44 PM
#1
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5379 | Subs: 28

Looking for your Opinions. Pls vote.
Cheers!

If you have other ideas, pls write them here down :)

11 Sep 2021, 23:04 PM
#2
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4024 | Subs: 3

What does airborne have to do with scotts?
11 Sep 2021, 23:06 PM
#3
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5379 | Subs: 28

What does airborne have to do with scotts?


I have the feeling that scotts with other commanders are not so broken and you see less scott spam with other usa commanders.
11 Sep 2021, 23:06 PM
#4
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 84

Poll seems slightly biased. All the change options in last 2 quesitons are nerfs?

I think scotty is fine, but if the unit is getting ANY change it should be buff. No chance in hell it should get nerfed again
11 Sep 2021, 23:09 PM
#5
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5379 | Subs: 28

Poll seems slightly biased. All the change options in last 2 quesitons are nerfs?

I think scotty is fine, but if the unit is getting ANY change it should be buff. No chance in hell it should get nerfed again


you see the option: no change?
11 Sep 2021, 23:17 PM
#6
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4024 | Subs: 3

Poll seems slightly biased. All the change options in last 2 quesitons are nerfs?

I think scotty is fine, but if the unit is getting ANY change it should be buff. No chance in hell it should get nerfed again


I added a "buff" option to question 2. Airborne buffs don't really pertain to this poll in question 3.

On topic:

Before the heavy nerfs I thought the scott needed to either lose the smoke canister or be 2 hit, either would be fine at that time. I haven't really tested the scott since the nerfs and then the buffs nor have I seen them. I'd suggest a buff in someway in exchange for becoming 2 shot or losing the smoke canister.

Semi-off topic:

Why is this poll arriving now that we have the balance patch out and supposedly it was the last balance patch?
11 Sep 2021, 23:22 PM
#7
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5379 | Subs: 28



Before the heavy nerfs I thought the scott needed to either lose the smoke canister or be 2 hit, either would be fine at that time. I haven't really tested the scott since the nerfs and then the buffs nor have I seen them. I'd suggest a buff in someway in exchange for becoming 2 shot or losing the smoke canister.

Semi-off topic:

Why is this poll arriving now that we have the balance patch out and supposedly it was the last balance patch?


There is normally always a hotfix, in case some bugs appear or something is too strong.

Not talking about new patch. Also just want to see how some forum people think about it. I know how twtich people think about it.
11 Sep 2021, 23:33 PM
#8
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1092

I'm speaking from a 3v3 perspective.
I'd buff the scott autofire and nerf the barrage accuracy.
I'd also buff the pak howi AOE, nerf autofire accuracy.


A single pak howi is downright useless vs anything with half a brain cell. Double pak howi are good (used to be great before the AOE nerf).
6 man didn't change the survivability of the howi so no point in keeping it.

Same with scott. Scott is a t4 unit with a fuel cost that contests with the pak howi currently (both favour barrages).
Pak howi is mostly used to barrage entrenched positions. The autofire of pak howi is useless vs anything that moves (long rotation time, long firing time, long shell fly-time).

My argumentation is that the scott should have good autofire specifications to deny the blobs, smoke barrage to help out against elefants and the likes and a barrage with a large scatter to further deny frontline blobs, whilst being useless vs a single MG42 or single w/e.
Large scatter would insure that the damage is distributed across the area. Right now the barrage is really really accurate, making it quite good vs single MG42s and the likes, but useless vs anything that moves around.

Pak howi on the other hand should be great vs entrenched enemies and weak vs moving. Right now you need double pak howis to punish infantry. With double paks you really really do punish infantry, but that's to be expected as it's not a linear growth. 2 pak howi >>> 1 pak howi.
Currently it's good vs entrenched and useless vs moving (rotation, fly-time, aim-time). It should have buffed AOE and nerfed scatter/accuracy + make it 5 man again.

But those are all changes at 1:31 GMT +2 and are quite extensive.
Basically reworking both units so that they do not overlap in their roles as they do currently. Well, Scott has the ever so brilliant for teamgames smoke barrages, which are a life saver vs walls of team weapons and heavies, but also is the last unit to be built. If you can't rocket arty them, at least smoke them.

If anything, I'd call it fine-ish. A "Mustn't get a nerf" fine-ish.
11 Sep 2021, 23:35 PM
#9
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 454 | Subs: 1

Scotts are OP in teamgames, 1v1s not so much. i think the core problem is however pathfinders spotting for everything and being utterly broken sight wise.
11 Sep 2021, 23:44 PM
#10
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1092

Scotts are OP in teamgames, 1v1s not so much. i think the core problem is however pathfinders spotting for everything and being utterly broken sight wise.


4v4? Because I haven't seen one in ages from any USF ally, and haven't even played against it in custom games which are definitely not ranked... in 3v3.
I'd guess that in 4v4 where your teammate is covering for you, right next to you, you can get away with scotts, but in 3v3 where you're basically fighting a 1v1 on a pretty small lane with occasional flanks, the scotts are a weakness vs non-sleeping opponents.

Or are you talking about 2v2? I can only speak for 3v3 where I honest to God have not seen a Scott in both high level mathups and those 23:00h rank 600+ matchups, nor the leisure "whoever joins the lobby" matchups
11 Sep 2021, 23:55 PM
#11
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 645

About scotts: Please don't knee jerk nerf scotts because of the tourney. Alwasy keep in mind that wehrmacht is broken in 1v1 and 2v2. They are needed as the only MP efficient unit US has. Imo remove the skillsmoke to make them more killable. Make the free smoke barrage vet 1 instead.

About Pathfinders: The unit is fine. Problem is the forward ambu rush.
12 Sep 2021, 00:16 AM
#12
avatar of Ulaire Minya

Posts: 371

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Sep 2021, 23:55 PMGiaA
Imo remove the skillsmoke to make them more killable.


Why wasn't the first nerf since scotts being undivable was the issue? Instead they were completely gutted offensively while remaining undivable.
12 Sep 2021, 02:50 AM
#13
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 46

1/ right now, M8 and Howie both depend on baragge fire to fight. That is overlap and quire too much mirco for everyone. Please changing Scout to auto fire unit forcus on moving target. Let pak howie deal with stationary weapon team.
2/ most complain of m8 scott is how hard to kill it, but now 50 range auto fire already make it become sweet target against 2 ATG meta. Maybe lower m8 speed so med tank could actually catch it is enough.
3/ M8 scott + path or any Indirect fire unit + offendsive scouting unit always a problem. That is a typical cheese/abuse when their faction couldnt do the job normally. Retweet airborne/recon company because of m8+ path is unresaonable. Look how you this with m8/ howie already !. LJI + ISG completely kill UKF play, why dont you look at th2m first ?
Overall, Pak and Howie still in their identify crisis.
12 Sep 2021, 03:01 AM
#14
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 758 | Subs: 1

The only problem with Scott - you need 3 shots to kill it, realistically you aren't suppose to use them aggressively to begin with, so imo there is no reason for them to have 3 shot hp tool.

Speaking of, why are we even discussing Scott when it's more or less fine without airborne but broken with it? I mean in 3v3/4v4 both pathfinders are OP af right now and all good USF players abuse the hell out of it. Not only with a bit of micro they shit on everything early game but also instantly locking areas with mg/at drops and self spot as weapon crews.

If anything it's not Scott it's the pathfinders who should be hit in the face with a nerf bat, because their early game combat performance (in 4v4 especially) and later vision (starting from 2v2) is out of the hand.

And when USFs pathfinders are actually supported by teammate and USF puts forward ambulance early, oh boy. You might aswell just stop fighting.

Again, imo, even if pathfinders have some reasoing behind their cheese, I would rather solf nerf it with ambulance forward reinforcement being locked untill LT\CP hits the field and tier building is unlocked, because USF right now is the only faction which pretty much have mobile forward reinforcements from the get go, not problem a big problem for 1v1\2v2 but cancer in 3v3\4v4.

Or at least make ambulance actually have a significant CD on set up, so if pushed, USF player couldnt just drive away a bit and instanly re-set up it.
12 Sep 2021, 03:19 AM
#15
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 365 | Subs: 1

Scott is not the issue, the Pathfinders are.
12 Sep 2021, 04:59 AM
#16
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 84

The only problem with Scott - you need 3 shots to kill it, realistically you aren't suppose to use them aggressively to begin with, so imo there is no reason for them to have 3 shot hp tool.

Speaking of, why are we even discussing Scott when it's more or less fine without airborne but broken with it? I mean in 3v3/4v4 both pathfinders are OP af right now and all good USF players abuse the hell out of it. Not only with a bit of micro they shit on everything early game but also instantly locking areas with mg/at drops and self spot as weapon crews.

How the F are pathfinders OP??? They havent been touched in ages

Especially ones on airborne, recon support Paths are better... Paths only do well if they shooting with other units, on their own they are useless (which they should be)
12 Sep 2021, 05:17 AM
#17
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1121

We almost never see the scott anymore or i am blind, and yet after nerfing its kill potetial hard overall the last few patches its still OP despite it requiering combined arms and having slightly better then bad one hit potential.


12 Sep 2021, 05:35 AM
#18
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 758 | Subs: 1


How the F are pathfinders OP??? They havent been touched in ages

Especially ones on airborne, recon support Paths are better... Paths only do well if they shooting with other units, on their own they are useless (which they should be)


They always have been to some extend, but there was far greater cheese strats for USF, therefor they werent used as much. But before pak howi nerf, it was also a meta to go recon and then spam pak howis.

But in teamgames 3v3\4v4 they are meta, its x2+mortar\x3 pathfinders into agressive forward ambulance into .50 cal\AT gun airdrop.

As OKW, unless you somehow flanked them with STs (which is possible only if there are sight blocks, since vision) you have no way of pushing them, since they will outsnipe volks and even rek kubel when in cover.

Its a bit harder vs ostheer, since ostheer can try to outsit you with MG (but you still can spot it for your mortar) and try to counter your mortar with its own, but they aswell cant push with grens and they will be taking losses while you will be healing.

In other words the only way to fight PFs early - push them, if there is teammate helping USF you simply dont have pushing power to fight it back, since you will be constantly bleeding and getting sniped even at mid range. And because of the forward ambulance USF can heal teammate and himself and eventually ones axis enevetably pushed back from the key location, usf will just drop 50 cal\AT gun to completly lock the zone.

You can watch 4v4 tournament, where inca and his teammate pretty much executed this strat over and over, and axis simply dont have anything early to fight it which allows snowballing. Or find any lvl 17-20 USF and watch their games, since its 99% they are using this strat.

It works only on fairly open maps, but most 3v3\4v4 maps are open anyway.
12 Sep 2021, 08:14 AM
#19
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 160

sure sure, then nerf both pathfinder and Jaeger, they can do sameshit with M8 scott, ISG.
12 Sep 2021, 09:00 AM
#20
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3246 | Subs: 1

So the nerf-to-the-ground to scott by the balance team was indeed a rage-nerf specifically done for 4vs4 Axis players. I would like to heard Relic about it.

Just a question, do Pathfinders have snare in this patch? Luch and 222 can't push them? But yeah it is probably easier to nerf their vision range to equal pioneer squads.

You can't nerf the Scott to be two-shots unit without buffing them even more in return to at the bare minimum what Scott was before you guttered it, why would a late game unit with no armor, not a single chance to deflect a direct hit be two-shot and be that bad offensively? What are you enhancing here, balance or your personal preferences?

You've enable Obers spam vs USF by nerfing hard the only late game relevant counter to them. Obers don't die in two shots, shall we modify it as well?
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