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russian armor

Relief for USF teching problems

Vaz
2 Sep 2021, 02:25 AM
#1
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

How about making the .50 and the at gun "t2"?

So the requirements for either is 1 officer.

If you build the LT, then you can build the .50 and the 57

if you build the cpt, then you can build the .50 and the 57

What you cannot do, however is upgrade for the more advanced "t3" units

So:

If you get LT, you can build the 57 out the other building, but you cannot get the tech upgrade to get the pak and aaht

If you get CPT, you can build the .50 out the other building, but you cannot get the tech upgrade to get the m20 and the stuart
2 Sep 2021, 09:43 AM
#2
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 304

Probably won't ever happen because fighting positions can have the .50 without any tech upgrade.

The faction design is locking either tool behind a tech upgrade, making you have to choose which you want early game or getting them both after the tech upgrade.

If you're playing team games (which I think you are judging by your player card), I recommend getting both LT and Captain without upgrading mechanized because Pack Howie and AAHT are pretty bad value units right. I prefer the extra guns on the field in exchange for that fuel.

Its kind of a problem when the 50MP less OKW IG gun kills better than the Pack Howie.
2 Sep 2021, 10:38 AM
#3
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2045 | Subs: 1

MMX
2 Sep 2021, 10:44 AM
#4
avatar of MMX

Posts: 880 | Subs: 1

if you want both mg and at gun a double officer build is the way to go. that or going airborne.
2 Sep 2021, 11:44 AM
#5
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1594 | Subs: 3

It would probably be preferable to rebalance Ostheer tech costs as opposed to linearizing every faction as much as Ostheer.
2 Sep 2021, 11:51 AM
#6
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1177

It would probably be preferable to rebalance Ostheer tech costs as opposed to linearizing every faction as much as Ostheer.


Agreed.
Have you ever thought of buffing the AA HT suppression? Or anything really. The AA mode fixed all of it's AA problems but it's suppression and clumsiness to use (must use handbreak, which can lead to problems), not to mention the 2 shot without any smoke or anything really force you to backtech to lieutenant for the MG
2 Sep 2021, 13:07 PM
#7
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 79

It would probably be preferable to rebalance Ostheer tech costs as opposed to linearizing every faction as much as Ostheer.

Ok
6 snipers 6 PAK40 in 4v4 premade team
3 Sep 2021, 09:41 AM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

It would probably be preferable to rebalance Ostheer tech costs as opposed to linearizing every faction as much as Ostheer.


It would preferable to set a single faction's tech as benchmark and adjust other faction to that pace than to continue messing around with each faction separately...
5 Sep 2021, 03:40 AM
#9
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 654 | Subs: 1

A faction requiring to make a tech choice? Oh no. Imo we should make all teching automatic. Just base the speed on fuel control.
5 Sep 2021, 05:18 AM
#10
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 02:25 AMVaz
How about making the .50 and the at gun "t2"?

So the requirements for either is 1 officer.

If you build the LT, then you can build the .50 and the 57

if you build the cpt, then you can build the .50 and the 57

What you cannot do, however is upgrade for the more advanced "t3" units

So:

If you get LT, you can build the 57 out the other building, but you cannot get the tech upgrade to get the pak and aaht

If you get CPT, you can build the .50 out the other building, but you cannot get the tech upgrade to get the m20 and the stuart



One of my biggest complaints with USF is the fairly static nature of their build order. 95% of the time you are going 2-3 Rifleman every game followed by Officer of choice which leaves very little flexibility. Compared to say Soviets who have probably the most diverse Build Order diversity in the game.

As Soviets you could go Conscripts, Penals, Maxims, a combination of these units. You never know what to expect while with USF you know exactly what to expect every game.

In that aspect I consider the USF tech rework to be a huge failure due to how limiting the strategic diversity is. Outside of Commanders (such as using Pathfinders for example) USF lacks non doctrinal strategic diversity.

I think a fair trade would be to get rid of the free officer squads in exchange to having easier access to HMG/AT Gun.
Pip
5 Sep 2021, 15:28 PM
#11
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557




One of my biggest complaints with USF is the fairly static nature of their build order. 95% of the time you are going 2-3 Rifleman every game followed by Officer of choice which leaves very little flexibility. Compared to say Soviets who have probably the most diverse Build Order diversity in the game.

As Soviets you could go Conscripts, Penals, Maxims, a combination of these units. You never know what to expect while with USF you know exactly what to expect every game.

In that aspect I consider the USF tech rework to be a huge failure due to how limiting the strategic diversity is. Outside of Commanders (such as using Pathfinders for example) USF lacks non doctrinal strategic diversity.

I think a fair trade would be to get rid of the free officer squads in exchange to having easier access to HMG/AT Gun.


I believe that Lelic have mandated that the Balance Team not remove the Free Officers. The compromise in one of the most recent patches being the ability to send an officer squad off of the field.

A lot of the balance issues present in the game are there because of Relic hamstringing the team, honestly.
Vaz
5 Sep 2021, 18:49 PM
#12
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

I have yet to send any officers away
5 Sep 2021, 19:56 PM
#13
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

The best thing to do honestly would be to combine the tools, both .50 and AT gun should fall under t0 and unlock once you get either the LT/CPT building upgrade.

If that need some sort of fuel cost increase so be it, either way the lack of tools and the slow tech of USF is rly a kicker.

A side issue of USF is simply the late game bleed, I've suggest an MP cost reduction to reinforce once major is hit to avoid the 4 year old riflemen vet 3 33% received accuracy modifier community complaint.
5 Sep 2021, 20:54 PM
#14
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

The best thing to do honestly would be to combine the tools, both .50 and AT gun should fall under t0 and unlock once you get either the LT/CPT building upgrade.

If that need some sort of fuel cost increase so be it, either way the lack of tools and the slow tech of USF is rly a kicker.

A side issue of USF is simply the late game bleed, I've suggest an MP cost reduction to reinforce once major is hit to avoid the 4 year old riflemen vet 3 33% received accuracy modifier community complaint.


I agree.
9 Sep 2021, 09:40 AM
#15
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

Probably won't ever happen because fighting positions can have the .50 without any tech upgrade.



Whermacht Bunkers do not need tech at the start just like fighting positions and yet they also start with the best MG in the game.
9 Sep 2021, 17:35 PM
#16
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 983

Probably won't ever happen because fighting positions can have the .50 without any tech upgrade.

The faction design is locking either tool behind a tech upgrade, making you have to choose which you want early game or getting them both after the tech upgrade.


Uhhh a stationary MG position is nice but it's no replacement for a mobile squad. Faction design is inherently poor because of the choice between hard AT and suppression. No other faction has to make that choice now (remember when Luftwaffe was OKW meta because it had an MG34 team?)

the current design is intentional and good.


See above. It's an awful design and USF is now the only faction that has to choose between suppression and AT.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 10:44 AMMMX
if you want both mg and at gun a double officer build is the way to go. that or going airborne.


I hate that I have to pay munitions to drop team weapons though... compared to the Ostheer Osttruppen weapon drop which is 375mp, I'd rather spend the extra manpower and save the muni for another BAR or bazooka


Agreed.
Have you ever thought of buffing the AA HT suppression? Or anything really. The AA mode fixed all of it's AA problems but it's suppression and clumsiness to use (must use handbreak, which can lead to problems), not to mention the 2 shot without any smoke or anything really force you to backtech to lieutenant for the MG


The balance team specifically reduced the suppression of the AA HT some time ago. Maybe it was too good, I don't remember, but you're right in that the flimsiness of the vehicle makes it difficult to keep alive in some cases. All the more reason for putting the .50cal and 57mm gun into T0.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Sep 2021, 03:40 AMGiaA
A faction requiring to make a tech choice? Oh no. Imo we should make all teching automatic. Just base the speed on fuel control.

It's not that choice is inherently bad, but choice between suppression or AT is bad and only USF has to make that choice now.
9 Sep 2021, 18:13 PM
#17
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3283 | Subs: 1



It's not that choice is inherently bad, but choice between suppression or AT is bad and only USF has to make that choice now.


The choice is bad because light vehicles don't cut it anymore. Only the m20 is currently cost/effective. The Stuart is just a 222 chaser and the AAHT has the suppression of a pistol.
9 Sep 2021, 19:19 PM
#18
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2021, 18:13 PMEsxile


The choice is bad because light vehicles don't cut it anymore. Only the m20 is currently cost/effective. The Stuart is just a 222 chaser and the AAHT has the suppression of a pistol.



Well USF is the most nerfed faction in COH 2 history. They gutted literally every single unit that was good especially the vehicles.


Stuart
-Only Light Vehicle with 35 Vision compared to 50 for most other light vehicles (including Kubelwagon) So it
cannot Scout or be used for Vision.
-SdKfz 222 Armored Car is 40 fuel cheaper yet better than the Stuart at killing Infantry. Also has Superior Vision
-Stuart is useless vs other vehicles compared to AEC/PUMA

Result is a unit that is a waste of fuel and serves no purpose for USF as it has no role.



M15A1 AA Halftrack
Nerfed into the ground due to OKW complaining that they can't blob and making Raketenwerfer was too hard to do so another unit gutted into the ground.

No point in using this unless you need the AA and M5 Halftrack from Tactical Support vastly outshines the M15A1. It is 20 Fuel cheaper, has better suppression and actually murders things while not being clunky to use and being more survivable with its Vet 1 ability.

You would think that a unit that costs almost double the fuel would be better but its a USF unit so its designated to being trash tier status.


M20

This was the main derivative of the Greyhound, also developed and built by Ford, as a command and control car, devoid of any turret. Its only armament comprised a lowered ring mounting a 0.50 cal (12.7 mm) heavy machine-gun, and stored weapons included a bazooka.


So the original design of the unit was accurate and on point with the real life version when the vehicle crew had the Bazooka. Considering that you need to pay 50 Ammo for Armored Skirts for the M20 to actually function as a vehicle (it will get raped without the upgrade) it should either have its Bazooka brought back or have the Ammo Cost removed from Armored Skirts.

Besides that this is probably one of the few vehicles for USF that isn't complete trash despite the nerfs it has received.
9 Sep 2021, 19:28 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1




Well USF is the most nerfed faction in COH 2 history. They gutted literally every single unit that was good especially the vehicles.


Stuart
-Only Light Vehicle with 35 Vision compared to 50 for most other light vehicles (including Kubelwagon) So it
cannot Scout or be used for Vision.
....


Stuart get 56 vision with veterancy and it scout just fine.
9 Sep 2021, 19:53 PM
#20
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 98

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Sep 2021, 19:28 PMVipper


Start get 56 vision with veterancy and it scout just fine.

Ya at vet 3. Good luck getting a stuart to vet 3

It have just under 44 at vet 1 which is barely more than a pio squad

Doesnt scout that well tbh, but its okay cuz m20 is right there anyway
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