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The devs did it again... Buffed B4 into the heaven

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20 Jun 2021, 00:52 AM
#82
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 4



I think there needs to be a massive reconsideration on how cheap all howitzers are on price. The price was lowered originally because there were counters like jaeger armor in doctrines that were picked every game. Those counters are not around anymore. On top of that, 400M and 50F is roughly 2 minutes of time designated to 1 unit in terms of income, whereas amassing 200MU + recon can take at minimum 4 minutes of income in munitions.



That's not how it works. Fuel & especially manpower are more valuable than ammo.

Who cares that your enemy needed to wait & invest all his ammo when you crippled your manpower economy, hence have 20 army size at some point while the enemy has 70
20 Jun 2021, 00:53 AM
#83
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

I haven't posted on this forum in years but I came back specifically to say the changes to the B4 are unconscionable and I cannot fathom what Relic was thinking. As someone upthread noted, 400 MP 50 FU is about 2 minutes of ingame income. 200 MU is about 4 minutes, and that's if you're somehow able to establish LOS, otherwise you need smoke or recon which is another minute+ of income.

That's 4-5 minutes of munitions income to hardcounter an artillery unit that can be rebuilt every 2-3 minutes, and to add insult to injury, it now deals suppression meaning if you get hit in your base you can't even leave your base before the next shot comes in.

I expected Katitof to defend this insanity, but I'm disappointed in anyone else who does
20 Jun 2021, 00:54 AM
#84
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115



That's not how it works. Fuel & especially manpower are more valuable than ammo.

Who cares that your enemy needed to wait & invest all his ammo when you crippled your manpower economy, hence have 20 army size at some point while the enemy has 70


this would be a smart point, if the B4 never hit anything, never got any kills, etc

in other words, it's a really dumb point
20 Jun 2021, 00:59 AM
#85
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4119 | Subs: 3



That's not how it works. Fuel & especially manpower are more valuable than ammo.

Who cares that your enemy needed to wait & invest all his ammo when you crippled your manpower economy, hence have 20 army size at some point while the enemy has 70


They're more valuable when you're bleeding and taking bad engagements. Taking good engagements and winning engagements manpower tends to float. Unless it's lategame 3v3+ and there's 3+ rocket arty pieces per side, odds are you're not scraping the barrel for manpower. 400 is a lot, but having no muni can cost engagements if you don't have grenades and snares.
20 Jun 2021, 01:01 AM
#86
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

having no muni can cost engagements if you don't have grenades and snares.


Right, that was the other point I wanted to make. 200 muni represents about 4 minutes of income ***assuming you don't spend literally any munitions on literally anything else***. a single thrown nade puts you back about another minute.
20 Jun 2021, 01:01 AM
#87
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625

Muni is life lately, that's for sure
20 Jun 2021, 01:15 AM
#88
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 4



this would be a smart point, if the B4 never hit anything, never got any kills, etc

in other words, it's a really dumb point


So your whole point is based on the RNG that the B4 player has. Got it. Or versing someone incapable reacting to the 10+ seconds delay in between shots.

The mere existence of the B4 also means 400mp 50 fuel that could have went into a better/more important unit for this situation instead.

You cant take out a mobile unit with pure ammo investment. But you can do that with howitzers, which can cause a massive shift in the war economy advantage for both sides of the match. "But what if the howitzer hits something" is a trash argument and doesnt change that fact. It's not launching homing missiles guaranteeing to kill stuff

20 Jun 2021, 01:29 AM
#89
avatar of the_onion_man
Patrion 14

Posts: 115

It's not launching homing missiles guaranteeing to kill stuff



It's really telling that your best argument is, "but what if the B4 never hits anything tho" (which fails to account for its use as an area denial tool, but nevermind)

I mean with this logic there wasn't ever any need to nerf the Tiger Ace armor or buff Zis penetration because, hey, it's all RNG, right?
20 Jun 2021, 02:07 AM
#90
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 4



It's really telling that your best argument is, "but what if the B4 never hits anything tho" (which fails to account for its use as an area denial tool, but nevermind)

I mean with this logic there wasn't ever any need to nerf the Tiger Ace armor or buff Zis penetration because, hey, it's all RNG, right?


thats what Im trying to say? Try to avoid RNG in your arguments.

The first strike damage is weaker than the old B4! Or you're telling me now the shells land soo quickly (10 or more seconds to react after 1st shot landed) that the B4 turned into a devastating wipe machine now compared to the old B4??
20 Jun 2021, 02:17 AM
#91
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 969 | Subs: 1


So your whole point is based on the RNG that the B4 player has. Got it. Or versing someone incapable reacting to the 10+ seconds delay in between shots.

Yeah, that the point with LeFH and ML20. B4 on the other hand has AOE and Suppresion and IF its not a total complete miss, you will ALWAYS do damage. Near hits will destoy squad health and suppress them (forcing you to retreat), close\direct hits will just down right destoy you. In comparecent to ML20\LeFH B4 chances of dealing damage\wipes are x10 highter in comparison to mentioned ML20\LeFH.

Also it doesnt have 10+ seconds between shots.


The mere existence of the B4 also means 400mp 50 fuel that could have went into a better/more important unit for this situation instead.

The same literally applies to any other howis in the game. What is your point? Fact is, that B4 is still better in harrasing\wiping then other howis by a mile, unless you need to destoy static possitions.


You cant take out a mobile unit with pure ammo investment. But you can do that with howitzers, which can cause a massive shift in the war economy advantage for both sides of the match. "But what if the howitzer hits something" is a trash argument and doesnt change that fact. It's not launching homing missiles guaranteeing to kill stuff

Muni vs unit cost (in teamgames) only applyable if one rush it. When you have already established army, 400 MP and 50 fuel isnt even comparable to 200+ muni. There is no way player spending muni to counter howis will be able to keep pase with the guy rebuilding howis.

Also, how muni is not that important in your eyes anyway? No the fact that you wont be able to throw nades, use abilities, give inf upgrades in case of a lost squad is somehow less important then 400MP and 50 fuel?

And yes, aurgument that "if howis hit something" is questinable, but again chances that you will hit something are incomparably highter for B4 now.


Instead of looking at the B4 from a perpectinve of "Its not OP, its just another good howi", compare it to the other howis and the way they are countered. Since they have same advantages and disadvanatges, compare what amount of damage they can do in the same environment, with the same amount of shots and in the same situations.

Thats why B4 is not okey right now:

CP cost - the same
Res cost - the same
Raw damage - B4 is better
Barrage cooldown- B4 is better
Burst damage - B4 is better
Chances to hit\kill with first shell\few shells - B4 is better
Stopping inf advance - B4 is better
Bombard static possition\deny zone - B4 is worst

And its not marginally better, its by far better.
20 Jun 2021, 02:21 AM
#92
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4119 | Subs: 3

One of the most glaring issues with the b4 is when it's launched onto your base retreat point. You get suppressed, and you have to retreat to that same spot where the b4 is going and basically pray all 3 shots don't kill something. The suppression just makes dodging it impossible.
20 Jun 2021, 05:19 AM
#93
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I've said in the past, base sector needs defensive modifiers. The ambulance had it and the b4 is testament that even something that is a good design on the field needs a base sector offset.
20 Jun 2021, 07:03 AM
#94
avatar of LMAO

Posts: 163

give all artillery supression and buff b4 damage that would be peak coh2 experience
20 Jun 2021, 08:20 AM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13175 | Subs: 1

Imo the B4 over performing or not is separate question to being uncounterable or not.
20 Jun 2021, 15:24 PM
#96
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

With all the b4s in 2on2 it feels like leig October all over again.
20 Jun 2021, 16:28 PM
#97
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

I play 2vs2 and today I got to meet an AT Allies top 100 team 2 games in a row.

2 games in a row they build B4 and my OKW Teammate blew them up right at 9 CP (Going for the OKW Flame Doctrine).

The B4 right now it's no longer a 1 shot medium tank which is good for us and if you playing with the ideal of counter B4 in mind then all the OKW player gotta do is save munitions + Wehr build muni cache.

The reason I ( Wehr ) didn't go Stuka bomb drop doctrine is because it required 12CP before can be drop and also no Elefant :\

I feel like B4 is fine and I rather prefer my enemies to goes B4 right now because we would blow it to sky high lol
20 Jun 2021, 16:38 PM
#98
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Yep, thats how howis work. They force a commander pick more than anything.
20 Jun 2021, 16:57 PM
#99
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2021, 16:28 PMKyle
I play 2vs2 and today I got to meet an AT Allies top 100 team 2 games in a row.

2 games in a row they build B4 and my OKW Teammate blew them up right at 9 CP (Going for the OKW Flame Doctrine).

The B4 right now it's no longer a 1 shot medium tank which is good for us and if you playing with the ideal of counter B4 in mind then all the OKW player gotta do is save munitions + Wehr build muni cache.

The reason I ( Wehr ) didn't go Stuka bomb drop doctrine is because it required 12CP before can be drop and also no Elefant :\

I feel like B4 is fine and I rather prefer my enemies to goes B4 right now because we would blow it to sky high lol


The problem right now is when you play with people and they don't notice the B4 commanders, and don't load counters. I just had the opposite experience in a 4v4. I used Storm but none of my 3 OKW teammates used Fuerstorm. One went Breakthrough but didn't save munitions. In the end, we got B4'd into the stone age. On top of that, they built their trucks in positions where the B4's could hit without forcing the Soviets to build aggressive B4's.

I haven't played any 2v2's yet, but suppression on my units in the base retreat point will be annoying if it happens. It sounds as bad as when the Leig suppressed.
20 Jun 2021, 17:00 PM
#100
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2021, 16:57 PMGrumpy


The problem right now is when you play with people and they don't notice the B4 commanders, and don't load counters. I just had the opposite experience in a 4v4. I used Storm but none of my 3 OKW teammates used Fuerstorm. One went Breakthrough but didn't save munitions. In the end, we got B4'd into the stone age. On top of that, they built their trucks in positions where the B4's could hit without forcing the Soviets to build aggressive B4's.

I haven't played any 2v2's yet, but suppression on my units in the base retreat point will be annoying if it happens. It sounds as bad as when the Leig suppressed.


I can see that would be a big problem in team game with random teammate, sorry to hear that.

Before the patch hit me and my ATmate already talked and have specify build against different commanders so for us B4 is not a problem but for others playing with random I can see your reason :D

Me personally I'm just happy it no longer a 1 shot medium like before, it was driving us crazy.
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