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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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26 Apr 2021, 15:14 PM
#441
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1

The changes to Luftwaffe are great. However the Commader has an horrible off-map that rarely ever works as intended and it's usually wasted munitions.
G). Instead of Target Them and Forced Retreat it has Suppression Run and Fragmentation Run


+1 I agree. I did not notice that Luftwaffe got significant indirect buffs with the merge of Heavy fortification and Field defenses:
Now you have also access to s-mines and bunkers which is great.
About Airborne assault:
I would just let the AT loiter appear with right at the start and not with the delay. That would help a lot without changing too much.

Luftwaffe looking pretty good now even without the Ostwind.
I just hope that Elite Armor and Firestorm got some love too. Thats all I#M asking for:)
26 Apr 2021, 15:48 PM
#442
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2021, 15:14 PMSmartie


+1 I agree. I did not notice that Luftwaffe got significant indirect buffs with the merge of Heavy fortification and Field defenses:
Now you have also access to s-mines and bunkers which is great.
About Airborne assault:
I would just let the AT loiter appear with right at the start and not with the delay. That would help a lot without changing too much.

Luftwaffe looking pretty good now even without the Ostwind.
I just hope that Elite Armor and Firestorm got some love too. Thats all I#M asking for:)

Yeah, that's also an option.
I'm guessing that the balance team specifically lowered the potency of Airborne Assault AT strafe because the Stuka Bomb can spot for it, which is why I was proposing to replace it with Stuka runs

That said, if Airborne Assault is straight up buffed, since Sector Assault combines suppression and AT loiters, Airborne Assault could have bombing runs that target both vehicles and infantry, but have less damage potential against vehicles

Regarding Elite Armor. I really think that, Sturmtiger rework aside, reworking the 221/223 is the key. It has no impact whatsoever. It was used in the only OKW game in last weekends tournament series and it was bullied by at guns while doing chip damage to conscripts. If the timing can't change, it must be way cheaper. I think it would be much better if the 223 upgrade was like an m20 upgrade that gave it just better armor and durability, costed just 80 munition, and it didn't have the lockdown ability.

The current cost of the fully upgraded 223 is 320 mp and 30 fuel, and it's worse in every single way to the m20
26 Apr 2021, 15:51 PM
#443
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

The changes to Luftwaffe are great. However the Commader has an horrible off-map that rarely ever works as intended and it's usually wasted munitions.
Since Sector Assault changes Overwatch retained CAS off-map, so a different alternative to turning Airborne Assault into CAS 2 could be having an officer unit. Fallschirmjäger Offizier, identical to Sturm Offizier but with Fallschirmjäger entities instead of Obersoldaten and at Veterancy 5 the Offizier unlocks a fg42 instead of an Stg44 (note that Sturm Offizier StG42 is a Panzergrenadier StG, not a Volks StG). Instead of Target Them and Forced Retreat it has Suppression Run and Fragmentation Run


What changes , I don't remember that they made changes for him.
26 Apr 2021, 16:14 PM
#444
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2021, 15:51 PMOlfin


What changes , I don't remember that they made changes for him.

They lowere flak pocap, made it not decrewable and merged flaks, trenches and tank traps with s-mines and bunkers, which the commanders did not have.
26 Apr 2021, 16:49 PM
#445
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178

Buffing the current functionality of Airbourne Assault is the wrong way to go imo. Luftwaffe Ground is already one of the stronger OKW doctrines strictly because of Falls and Valiant Assault. I'd rather see it changed into a less impactful Suppression loiter, made a little cheaper, and maintain the Fallschirmjäger reinforcement quirk as it's primary function so it's not a bait ability for people who don't understand that it's awfully useless.

221 I'd like to see either tried at 10F+15F for faster field presence, or 15F+10F for just faster lockdown conversion vs true Lights. That way your ROI from locking down Fuel would only take 8:20 to pay for itself instead of 10:00, and it'd be able to retire into being an Opal Blitz at a more reasonable timeframe and actually work as a way to generate a little extra income in the long term since it's impact is pretty much negligible right now.

People underestimate the 221 though, it's got some meat on it's bones and isn't terrible at bleeding. Problem is that it's not worth 30 Fuel more than a kubel since it just slows you down too much and you're often just better not building it at all.
26 Apr 2021, 16:53 PM
#446
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167


They lowere flak pocap, made it not decrewable and merged flaks, trenches and tank traps with s-mines and bunkers, which the commanders did not have.


Yeah I forget about those
26 Apr 2021, 17:32 PM
#447
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2021, 16:49 PMJPA32
Buffing the current functionality of Airbourne Assault is the wrong way to go imo. Luftwaffe Ground is already one of the stronger OKW doctrines strictly because of Falls and Valiant Assault. I'd rather see it changed into a less impactful Suppression loiter, made a little cheaper, and maintain the Fallschirmjäger reinforcement quirk as it's primary function so it's not a bait ability for people who don't understand that it's awfully useless.

221 I'd like to see either tried at 10F+15F for faster field presence, or 15F+10F for just faster lockdown conversion vs true Lights. That way your ROI from locking down Fuel would only take 8:20 to pay for itself instead of 10:00, and it'd be able to retire into being an Opal Blitz at a more reasonable timeframe and actually work as a way to generate a little extra income in the long term since it's impact is pretty much negligible right now.

People underestimate the 221 though, it's got some meat on it's bones and isn't terrible at bleeding. Problem is that it's not worth 30 Fuel more than a kubel since it just slows you down too much and you're often just better not building it at all.

Falls are a sidegrade of Obersoldaten with ambush mechanics, they are not a dealbreaker in the slightest, especially in a doctrine that lacks heavy tanks, artillery. The true reason the doctrine had relevancy was the smoke recon, which was and still is a godsend for 1vs1 OKW
The doctrine has already a powerful and versatile muni sink, so fixing another one wouldn't even buff it that much.

I don't see how that improves much of the 221, the 223 is absolutely not worth 25 or 30 fuel. The upgraded 223 is a MUCH WORSE M20 scout car that greatly lacks in dps The 221 armor and health stats match those of the Universal Carrier and WC51. Unless the timing can be lowered, the 221 shouldn't pay any extra fuel besides the 15 fuel cost. If the timing would make 223 too strong with a munition upgrade, then it should be enough to lock it behind first truck set up, but upgrading from 221 to 223 shouldn't delay your teching or cost further manpower, it just doesn't deserve it.
People don't "understimate" the 221, they rightfully ignore it because by performance/timing and performance/cost ratio it is by far one of the WORST light vehicles, arguably the worst, including all doctrinal vehicles
26 Apr 2021, 19:49 PM
#448
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359


Falls are a sidegrade of Obersoldaten with ambush mechanics, they are not a dealbreaker in the slightest, especially in a doctrine that lacks heavy tanks, artillery. The true reason the doctrine had relevancy was the smoke recon, which was and still is a godsend for 1vs1 OKW
The doctrine has already a powerful and versatile muni sink, so fixing another one wouldn't even buff it that much.

I don't see how that improves much of the 221, the 223 is absolutely not worth 25 or 30 fuel. The upgraded 223 is a MUCH WORSE M20 scout car that greatly lacks in dps The 221 armor and health stats match those of the Universal Carrier and WC51. Unless the timing can be lowered, the 221 shouldn't pay any extra fuel besides the 15 fuel cost. If the timing would make 223 too strong with a munition upgrade, then it should be enough to lock it behind first truck set up, but upgrading from 221 to 223 shouldn't delay your teching or cost further manpower, it just doesn't deserve it.
People don't "understimate" the 221, they rightfully ignore it because by performance/timing and performance/cost ratio it is by far one of the WORST light vehicles, arguably the worst, including all doctrinal vehicles


Greyhound
26 Apr 2021, 21:22 PM
#449
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 797

I've been wondering for a long time how to make Scavenge Doc a more favourable doc but it had lots of flaws. Even the earlier Ostwinds don't seem to have been enough to attract ppl (runs into med tank).

The volks change is an interesting one and I'm curious to see how ppl play out with it and if armor-centric builds are more likely with the better sustain.
26 Apr 2021, 22:09 PM
#450
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

I've been wondering for a long time how to make Scavenge Doc a more favourable doc but it had lots of flaws. Even the earlier Ostwinds don't seem to have been enough to attract ppl (runs into med tank).

The volks change is an interesting one and I'm curious to see how ppl play out with it and if armor-centric builds are more likely with the better sustain.


I find the BTG into Ostwind rush to be a decent strat because the commander has infiltration grenades and Jägers helping me keep the upper hand against infantry without light vehicles, but I agree that the commander is weak. I don't think that volks repair kit is enough to make it a good choice. I think that the 105mm offmap is not really functional neither as area denial tool nor as off map to bust weapon crews. It should either deliver the shells faster and in a larger area or lose the munition gimmick and become a time on target 2
27 Apr 2021, 02:02 AM
#451
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

I've been wondering for a long time how to make Scavenge Doc a more favourable doc but it had lots of flaws. Even the earlier Ostwinds don't seem to have been enough to attract ppl (runs into med tank).

The volks change is an interesting one and I'm curious to see how ppl play out with it and if armor-centric builds are more likely with the better sustain.


Although it may need changes itself I thought the 221 could be interesting in the doctrine. It comes early and pairs well with Volk repairs to possible pressure the enemy early. Then once upgraded it can provide a resource boost to help rush out an Ostwind or stockpiling resources for the 105mm barrage.
I the 221 needs a boost in some manner but I think it's a good fit in scavenge.
27 Apr 2021, 02:52 AM
#452
avatar of Blitzkrieg

Posts: 7 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2021, 07:14 AMOlfin


I agree I think this commander has lost all its charms and moved from top tier to the lowest tier.
(Even radio silence was hugely Nerfed which is justified but I don't think it is worth picking this commander because of it)


Hi guys,

Clearly there are some people who are not fans of flare here - again if you want to have a conversation about the balance of flare vision you're free to have it, but that's not the thrust of my point-

If flare is moved onto command panther (a lategame unit) the results are:

1) There is no reason to play spec ops commander as is it seems it has worse vision options than any panzerfusilier doctrine, which both have strong late game heavy armor options for team or 1v1 settings along with other strong abilities including smoke bombs. Its other abilities are weak or available on other, stronger commanders

2) OKW as a faction no longer has any off-map vision options. it becomes the only faction in the game which has no commander-based off map vision options. Again, if you have a problem with how the flare ability is balanced that is a separate conversation- having no off map vision options on any of their commanders is objectively a disadvantage and becomes another imbalanced point in coh.

Should spec ops commander be given an airplane based loiter instead? Should the flare be limited to border sectors to match the british flare? Should there be a new vision based off-map ability i have not thought of? These are all options, but i think it is objectively clear that no faction should entirely lack an option that is a given to the rest of the game's factions



27 Apr 2021, 05:25 AM
#453
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1



Hi guys,

Clearly there are some people who are not fans of flare here - again if you want to have a conversation about the balance of flare vision you're free to have it, but that's not the thrust of my point-
[…]
2) OKW as a faction no longer has any off-map vision options. it becomes the only faction in the game which has no commander-based off map vision options. Again, if you have a problem with how the flare ability is balanced that is a separate conversation- having no off map vision options on any of their commanders is objectively a disadvantage and becomes another imbalanced point in coh.


Excellent point; OKW had the by far the best recon/ vision Options with overwatch Flares and the arty flares but both abilities were nerfed really hard (needed changes). But now not a single commander has a recon plane in the loadout. This really needs to be changed.

I would replace the IRSTg44 in Specops with a recon plane. IRStg44 are one of the least attractive abilities because so few units can use it and the base alternative is quite good. Specops with recon plane+ CP flares would be a lot more attractive.
27 Apr 2021, 11:56 AM
#454
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 707



2) OKW as a faction no longer has any off-map vision options. it becomes the only faction in the game which has no commander-based off map vision options. Again, if you have a problem with how the flare ability is balanced that is a separate conversation- having no off map vision options on any of their commanders is objectively a disadvantage and becomes another imbalanced point in coh.


It seems that extremely cheap Stuka Smoke Recon run in Luftwaffe doctrine and Stuka recon run on IR Halftruck does not count.
27 Apr 2021, 12:54 PM
#455
avatar of LMAO

Posts: 163


It seems that extremely cheap Stuka Smoke Recon run in Luftwaffe doctrine and Stuka recon run on IR Halftruck does not count.

yeah if you only have Eidetic memory those recons would be useful, they're almost as bad as CAS recon pass
27 Apr 2021, 13:04 PM
#456
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 837 | Subs: 1


It seems that extremely cheap Stuka Smoke Recon run in Luftwaffe doctrine and Stuka recon run on IR Halftruck does not count.


The ability on IR Halftruck is gated behind
a) a tech building
b) a unit

Smoke recon runs are good no question.
27 Apr 2021, 14:03 PM
#457
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 707

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2021, 12:54 PMLMAO

yeah if you only have Eidetic memory those recons would be useful, they're almost as bad as CAS recon pass

IF you are complaining about lack of off map recon, from all factions only OST has plenty of off map recon in meta doctrines. Other faction either have it on 1 meta doctrine (Tactical Support), or have it on off-meta/semi meta (counter attack) doctrines.
27 Apr 2021, 15:20 PM
#458
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

about the 221 compared to the m20 it's obvs overpriced

221 30 fuel 320 mp

320 hp
35 range
10,4 armor f and 4 armor b


m20 20 fuel 240 mp 50 mun

320 hp
40 range
11 armor f and 5 armor b

dps 221 is higher at the start but the m20 has incremental accuracy (which is pretty rare in any unit) so the longer it fieres the better it is , if im not wrong

edit: i was wrong it just increase dps as the there are more models around the target, so it still increases dps at the start but it's less strong vs low models, so it's actually better at the start of engagement and a bit worse with low models compared to 221

and has 5 more range so it can outrange infantry and the 221

in a straight fight the m20 win because it has 3/2/1 penetration while the 221 has a measly 1.2/1.1/1 (some infantry weapon have higher pen)

the kubel mg34 has 1.9/1.6/1.3

they could really cut 5 fuel from the starting cost of the unit , since even the clown car beats it unupgraded and it can even put troops inside it



27 Apr 2021, 15:45 PM
#459
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Hardly a proper comparison when it leaves out the bit where the 223 brings the utility of being able to give any resource sector +100% income... That stuff costs something on top of combat performance.

Or the environment in which these units start. Which is against min 1 Panzerfausts and T0 Raketens for the M20, and defenseless Infantry Sections and Rifles for the 221.
27 Apr 2021, 15:47 PM
#460
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

yes the upgrade , isn't that why it cost more already ?
i mean the ability are good but its's not like the lockdown is free to use, u have to basically make the unit useless while u use it make it a glorified cache

don't forget the m 20 comes with anti tank mine from the start

for timing ukf now has engi right ? and their own light vehicle in the UC wich has more armor and better at long range

usf now can access at weapons and at Granade and really u don't even need those for how much armor it has

u could always lock it after first truck call in too if u think it's too early, the price of the unit is high for what u get
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