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Abandon

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2 Feb 2021, 02:31 AM
#81
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793



Just stop and accept not every one likes 100% skill based games.
As it stands they are the majority. Most people came to coh2 for this rng, it sets it apart from all others rts's.

I can enjoy and understand why people enjoy tournies without the rng. But i and quite a few others enjoy the game with the rng such as mgc or abandon even more.
Here less games get decided in about 5 minutes that then get dragged out and hoping the ahead player screws up royaly.

Making mgc or abandon require certain units or conditions or abilities is bad imo. Only skilled players will get them to work. Ganing a massive edge over any who cant use them well and giving elitism a boost.


the thing is, chance is part and parcel of life and real sports have rng all this while.

no need to feel inferior or lack of skills if you prefer rng. rng can be as competitive as skills based as awesome as without.

probably more skills based, as the best real sport teams dominate and overcome bad luck...most of the time.
2 Feb 2021, 03:00 AM
#82
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

ultimately it's not the problem of rng, but the need to have a professionally verified robust rng math running behind future essence engine

you can't call yourself the best if a run of bad luck keeps you down and you can't overcome it. /shrugs
2 Feb 2021, 12:02 PM
#83
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2021, 23:35 PMPip


Most players don't play CoH2 because "It's Random".

The idea that a better player shouldn't win is also absolutely laughable. "Elitism" lmao.


Stil coh2 is the most rng based rts out there. You can deny it all you want but a large part of the playerbase came to coh2 because of it. An other large part for ww2 setting. Esports crowd is small compared to those.

You do fit the bill for elitism perfectly, you cant even phathom why some one likes the rng aspects and only keep to your own narrow opnion and dont even try to find common ground.

I never said a better player shoudnt win. I said i like the rng such as mgc and abandon wich can flip games to the other side at under 5% of all games. Still by far most games the better player wins.
But keep focusing on the tiny tiny percent chance it can happen.
2 Feb 2021, 12:18 PM
#84
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Stil coh2 is the most rng based rts out there.

Ah, I see you are not aware of existence of Men of War or Steel Division series.

Also, pretty much less "rng based rts" games then CoH2 are much, much closer to Starcraft then CoH in terms of mechanics as its all about health bars, pinpoint accuracy and occasional artillery scatter as RNG.
Pip
2 Feb 2021, 13:01 PM
#85
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



Stil coh2 is the most rng based rts out there. You can deny it all you want but a large part of the playerbase came to coh2 because of it. An other large part for ww2 setting. Esports crowd is small compared to those.

You do fit the bill for elitism perfectly, you cant even phathom why some one likes the rng aspects and only keep to your own narrow opnion and dont even try to find common ground.

I never said a better player shoudnt win. I said i like the rng such as mgc and abandon wich can flip games to the other side at under 5% of all games. Still by far most games the better player wins.
But keep focusing on the tiny tiny percent chance it can happen.


It isnt the most RNG based RTS out there, as Katitof has already said.

There isnt common ground to be had, you want absurdly impactful RNG to swing games because it's "cool", and I would like the game to actually improve.

There shouldn't be absurdly impactful random chance "Flipping" games at all. The better player should win, worse players shouldn't be getting a pity win out of RNG. Due to the extremely low chance and high impact of these occurrences you cannot play around them without generally playing in a less effective manner. All they do is reward passive play, and punish proactive (and better) players.

Other RNG, such as bounces, accuracy etcetera, can be more effectively influenced and accounted for, and are individually not as impactful. MGC and Abandons cannot, and in the latter case are not a good fit for the game as random chance.

The compromise is to make Abandons and MGC something caused by intentional action. The mechanics themselves are not an issue, the implementation as random garbage is. Flame crits were removed for a reason.
3 Feb 2021, 01:34 AM
#86
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

the thing is, why focused so much on the losing position? if we are to believe abandon can happen to anyone from winning or losing position. it is a fair logic in the game

for spectators, abandon adds another possibility. if eek-sports fame is what some seek, then make more sense to have more possibility no?
3 Feb 2021, 01:45 AM
#87
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

the issue to intentionally trigger abandon, through faust/at nade or mines, would probably require a big rework, to make it still viable and exciting in game

if you make it too complicated and thus rarer, it becomes a backdoor way to remove the mechanic.

same when you start adding resources requirements to recrew it, its basically going to remove it if the other factors remain as is

at this stage of the game, i see nothing wrong with abandoned team weapon and vehicles

relic better keep these 2 as core mechanics in coh3. microsoft buyout better take note too!
3 Feb 2021, 02:01 AM
#88
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

i also think even if abandoned is intentionally trigger in coh3, i believe we still need to add rng on top of this new formula.

and it has to be relatively common than rare

rng 4 lfye
abandon 4 eek sports viewers
3 Feb 2021, 10:20 AM
#89
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

the thing is, why focused so much on the losing position? if we are to believe abandon can happen to anyone from winning or losing position. it is a fair logic in the game


The problem is that it's a low chance probability on a circumstance that doesn't happen in every game and it only becomes relevant in fringe cases.

Imagine this, you infiltrate a unit to gain vision and you use a Stuka dive bomb in a blob of Katyushas right outside enemy base. You lose that game because the game decided to make them abandoned rather than destroyed.

the issue to intentionally trigger abandon, through faust/at nade or mines, would probably require a big rework, to make it still viable and exciting in game

if you make it too complicated and thus rarer, it becomes a backdoor way to remove the mechanic.

same when you start adding resources requirements to recrew it, its basically going to remove it if the other factors remain as is

at this stage of the game, i see nothing wrong with abandoned team weapon and vehicles



Oh look, that's something which was tweaked, kept and is perfectly fine.

RELIABLE:
-Every time the amount of models required to man a weapon drops to a certain point the support weapons is abandoned in place.
-The weapon is only destroyed AFTER the crew dies AND the HP goes to 0 (this was patched, it used to be you could destroy the weapon itself first)

Counterplay
-You can repair support weapons to avoid them getting destroyed if your weapon get's decrewed.

Resource swing
-It's more expensive to reinforce recrewed support weapons rather than using their original (although bad) crew.
-In general we are talking about 300mp and to that you have to discount the reinforcement of models.


We also have weapon drops from infantry squads.
They only happen when the squad doesn't have another model to pick it up which either means you have multiple weapons or your squad get's wiped. At which point the most you are losing is around 60muni.


I think the concept of abandoned is great (been able to use units from other factions) it's just rather poorly implemented and balanced.
Think it this way, why does it makes sense that it takes so long to destroy an abandoned AT gun vs any abandoned vehicle?

-Abandoned should be more common but the player should know in which situations they can trigger. I don't think either medium or heavier tanks, AT guns or offmap should trigger them. Unless you can sort it out so abandon can only trigger in the middle of the map and not near HQ/near strategic points.

-Abandoned vehicles should have more HP. Ideally 50% of the original HP with a 50% dmg and repair modifier.

-Recrewing takes 25% of mp cost and 50% of the fuel cost.
3 Feb 2021, 11:16 AM
#90
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

the thing is, why focused so much on the losing position? if we are to believe abandon can happen to anyone from winning or losing position. it is a fair logic in the game


Nope. It is just too rare to even out. Chances are you won't even see one single abandon in a game. Having two abandons in a single game happen is even less likely, and then again one abandon per player (plus, the abandons should be roughly equal. An abandoned Kubel vs Comet is quite shitty).

Bounces and misses of shots happen so frequently that they at least have a decent chance to even out, but abandons practically cannot. Especially since you do not have any influence over an abandon, while you do have some influence over accuracy and penetration.
3 Feb 2021, 11:16 AM
#91
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

i don't think abandoned should be restricted to a part of a map. that will be so dry and dull.

perhaps in coh3 we have vehicle crew for all vehicles and you get toggle able round to target vehicle or infantry or crew.

vehicle will have another crew hp bar that will Tigger abandon. and the number of Crew depends on the class. like a KT needs 8x40hp while a bren needs just 1x40hp. rng applies on top of it still

of course this means more work for relic. relic being relic, would probably drop the abandoned mechanic if more pro keeps whining about its current form
3 Feb 2021, 11:31 AM
#92
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

crewable team weapon and vehicles for all, seems like the most logical progression for coh3.

to prevent targeting for an abandoned, we can impose muni costs to upgrade your new crew members. you cant expect pioneers to drive avre just like this.

so a recrew tanks will restart at 50, 75% capability and you pay muni to upgrade back to full power.

instead of always starting at snared and mgc status, which can still give higher abandoned chances
3 Feb 2021, 15:43 PM
#93
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1157

I don't think baring abandon in base sector is a good idea, that would encourage base rushes knowing the worst that can happen is to lose your tank. Base rushing quite rightly should be high risk.
Pip
3 Feb 2021, 17:38 PM
#94
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

I don't think baring abandon in base sector is a good idea, that would encourage base rushes knowing the worst that can happen is to lose your tank. Base rushing quite rightly should be high risk.


Losing your tank is already punishment enough.

This is the case in literally any engagement though, Losing a tank is already punishment enough, there is no reason to have an extra tiny chance for your opponent to magically not lose his tank after already failing RA and penetration chances, or even worse: GAINING a vehicle because RNG decided to make your lost tank abandoned rather than merely destroyed.
3 Feb 2021, 19:13 PM
#95
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1157

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Feb 2021, 17:38 PMPip




But in COH, you should ALWAYS support your units, just sending a single tank on a YOLO is highly risky and should have a chance of horrendous results.

If you are going deep, you ideally want a mine sweeper near by, you want something that can finish wrecks if needs be, even if thats just rocket arty or even an off map strike, whatever. Just sending a loan tank with no back up and no plan B is stupid, should not be rewarded.
Pip
3 Feb 2021, 19:16 PM
#96
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



But in COH, you should ALWAYS support your units, just sending a single tank on a YOLO is highly risky and should have a chance of horrendous results.

If you are going deep, you ideally want a mine sweeper near by, you want something that can finish wrecks if needs be, even if thats just rocket arty or even an off map strike, whatever. Just sending a loan tank with no back up and no plan B is stupid, should not be rewarded.


It isnt rewarded if you lose your tank, assuming your opponent is competent enough to defend himself.

Being in a position to be able to dive with a single vehicle and get something done is a failing on your opponent's part, and a show of skill on your own. If you lose your vehicle then that is already punishment enough. Handing a new vehicle to your enemy (Due to unavoidable random chance, i might add) is not at all required.

3 Feb 2021, 21:28 PM
#97
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2021, 13:01 PMPip


It isnt the most RNG based RTS out there, as Katitof has already said.

There isnt common ground to be had, you want absurdly impactful RNG to swing games because it's "cool", and I would like the game to actually improve.

There shouldn't be absurdly impactful random chance "Flipping" games at all. The better player should win, worse players shouldn't be getting a pity win out of RNG. Due to the extremely low chance and high impact of these occurrences you cannot play around them without generally playing in a less effective manner. All they do is reward passive play, and punish proactive (and better) players.

Other RNG, such as bounces, accuracy etcetera, can be more effectively influenced and accounted for, and are individually not as impactful. MGC and Abandons cannot, and in the latter case are not a good fit for the game as random chance.

The compromise is to make Abandons and MGC something caused by intentional action. The mechanics themselves are not an issue, the implementation as random garbage is. Flame crits were removed for a reason.


I remember him saying that yes. But cant remember wich.

You want a game filled with rng from start to finish to "improve" because "skills" wich rng makes a bit less relavant.
You do know "improvements" dont always deliver right? Where brits an improvement? Was dow3 (stripped of rng) an improvement over dow2?

You say that mgc or abandon are absurdly impactfull, yet missing or bouncing a killing blow on a critical unit happens far more often and can decide a game then and there.
Out of a 100 games only a handfull get flipped by mgc or abandon. This impacts ladder posistions minimaly because both can benifit less and highly skilled players alike. Mostly when overextending greatly is mgc or abandon massivly impactfull, if you support your tanks properly the impact is lessend greatly.
But aperently overextending greatly is being proactive (better) nowadays, and a player on defense (a bad player) or good at defense doesnt get his tanks abandend or mgc and he can't deal decisive damage that way and only win because a <5% chance his opponent gets mgc or abandon crit on their tank.

Imo the compromise should be keeping the no mgc and abandon in tourny mod, there they have no place. And adding cost to reclaming abandoned vehicles for the opposing players in the base game to not get a easy free tank.
But if you tie them to abilities or units this can and imo will lead to far more issues then currently, mostly abuse and open the door to outright remove them.
Pip
3 Feb 2021, 21:56 PM
#98
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



I remember him saying that yes. But cant remember wich.

You want a game filled with rng from start to finish to "improve" because "skills" wich rng makes a bit less relavant.
You do know "improvements" dont always deliver right? Where brits an improvement? Was dow3 (stripped of rng) an improvement over dow2?

All of this is meaningless and has nothing to do with anything. Try rewriting this so it actually makes some sense. "Improvement" always means something becomes better. You are seemingly thinking of a different word, few people think DoW3 was an improvement over 2, but this has LITERALLY nothing to do with CoH2 in any way.

DoW3 didn't have RNG removed, by the way, and obviously this then wasn't why it failed.


You say that mgc or abandon are absurdly impactfull, yet missing or bouncing a killing blow on a critical unit happens far more often and can decide a game then and there.
Out of a 100 games only a handfull get flipped by mgc or abandon. This impacts ladder posistions minimaly because both can benifit less and highly skilled players alike. Mostly when overextending greatly is mgc or abandon massivly impactfull, if you support your tanks properly the impact is lessend greatly.

Accuracy and penetration can be affected by positioning, being closer to an opposing tank with your PAK improves both accuracy and penetration. You have literally no way to affect abandon chance.

Also: If it only affects 1 out of 100 games you surely won't miss it being gone? Regardless of a "good" or a "bad" player being on the receiving end, you are being rewarded far too dramatically for a complete stroke of luck.



But aperently overextending greatly is being proactive (better) nowadays, and a player on defense (a bad player) or good at defense doesnt get his tanks abandend or mgc and he can't deal decisive damage that way and only win because a <5% chance his opponent gets mgc or abandon crit on their tank.

If you never attack you are a bad player, yes. You cannot win the game by building a siegfried line and hoping your opponent drives straight into it. This is incredibly boring for all parties involved, and only works in the absolute lowest skill brackets.

Diving is not the same as "Overextending Greatly". A dive requires intelligent use of your vehicle to bypass enemy defences in order to fulfil a goal, with the idea in mind that you might lose your vehicle in the process. Losing your vehicle is enough, you do not need to also hand your opponent a free vehicle on top of this.

If you are unable to defend yourself from a dive without needing a random chance for the diving tank to become abandoned then you need to improve at the game. This is what mines are for.


Imo the compromise should be keeping the no mgc and abandon in tourny mod, there they have no place. And adding cost to reclaming abandoned vehicles for the opposing players in the base game to not get a easy free tank.
But if you tie them to abilities or units this can and imo will lead to far more issues then currently, mostly abuse and open the door to outright remove them.



The compromise should either be making MGC and Abandon be caused by abilities, or by vehicles being killed in certain ways.

Feel free to describe the "Abuse" that this opens up, because unless you invent some weird fantasy implementation of an ability-based abandon mechanic I really can't think of any abuse possible.

Vehicles used to be prone to far more criticals randomly happening to them, such as Engine damage (Even from the front). This was removed and left as something caused solely by dedicated Snare abilities. This was a good change, and the same should be done for MGC and Abandon, which are the only two random criticals left, to my knowledge.

Outright removing them is fine, too. They're bad mechanics as they are.

3 Feb 2021, 22:19 PM
#99
avatar of Brick Top

Posts: 1157

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Feb 2021, 19:16 PMPip


It isnt rewarded if you lose your tank, assuming your opponent is competent enough to defend himself.

Being in a position to be able to dive with a single vehicle and get something done is a failing on your opponent's part, and a show of skill on your own. If you lose your vehicle then that is already punishment enough. Handing a new vehicle to your enemy (Due to unavoidable random chance, i might add) is not at all required.



Being in a position to just hand an abandon to your opponent, without the ability to destroy it and deny it, is a failing on YOUR part.
Pip
3 Feb 2021, 22:31 PM
#100
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



Being in a position to just hand an abandon to your opponent, without the ability to destroy it and deny it, is a failing on YOUR part.


No, it's a random punishment from RNG.

Losing your tank is punishment enough for a poorly executed dive. There is literally no reason to further punish a player by handing the tank to his opponent.

Intelligent aggressive play is to be encouraged, which is what a dive is. It isnt an "Overextension". In most cases a dive is the only way to deal with rocket artillery, given that there is zero reason for it to be close enough to the frontlines to be in direct combat. An even slightly intelligent player will move his rocket artillery to a safe position if a coordinated push happens, which prevents such pushes from actually dealing with those units.

Mines already exist to counter this sort of play, there isnt a need for RNG to decide to make it even MORE punishing for no good reason.
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