[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

1 SU76 has half the veterancy requirement of 1 SU85, it's also about half as effective against tanks. Its vet 2/3 are also not that exceptional compared to the SU85.

1 SU76 has half the veterancy requirement of 1 SU85, it's also about half as effective against tanks. Its vet 2/3 are also not that exceptional compared to the SU85.

Su-85 already has lower XP value than other TDs of its class and Su-76 is not half as effective vs T3 tanks. The unit get Vet1 with a couple of shot since it XP value is close to obers and 222...

XP values:
Sdkfz 222 Scout Car 720 1440 2880
SU-76 870 1740 3480
AEC Mk.III 75mm Armored Car 1160 2320 4640
Sdkfz 234 Puma 1340 2680 5360
M10 Wolverine 1440 2880 5760
StuG III Ausf. G 1510 3020 6040
Jagdpanzer IV/70 2150 4300 8600

total fuel cost to T-34
T1/2 + ATnade/molly + T3 + T4 + 90 fuel

10/15+10+10+85+90+90 = 300 fuel

total cost to Panzer 4
T1 + BP1 + T2 + BP2 + 125 fuel
10+40+20+105+125 = 300 fuel


but yeah sure "balance"

When i look at the stats/ numbers i come to this :

T34 cost total:

T2 --> 160/15
T3--> 240/85
T4 --> 240/90
T34 --> 300/90 AND only 10 Popcap

-->940 Manpower 280 fuel

Wehrmacht PIV cost total (live version cost, not mod!):

T1 --> 80/10
BP1 --> 100/40
T2 --> 100/20
BP2 --> 200/105
T3 --> 140/0
PIV --> 355/120 AND 12 Popcap

--> 975 Manpower 255 fuel

BUT
1) In atleast 2vs2-4vs4 soviet can skip any vehicles and can rush t34. Normally wehrmacht goes for 1 251hft or an 222, which each cost 200 manpower and 30 fuel extra.
2) T34 is very good tank vs inf. Imo better than piv. Yes sometimes if you are clumbed wehrmacht piv hits too^^
3) The next problem is not the first T34 vs PIV. The thing is, that you can get over the whole game faster, easier and more t34 than pivs, because of less manpower cost (55) and less fuel cost (30 fuel) and 2 less popcap for each tank.

Vet 1 stuff

4) You get already vet1 after killing 14 gren models for example, without getting self damage.
5) You get vet 1 already after 4 shot(hits) fights vs enemy PIV, without getting self damage.

6) You get also some vet, when you get damage from enemy.

So you can get fast vet1 for T34. It is just to give enemy a chance to see and react, that you got new t34 to ram your units.
So if you look close to this change, it is a very very small nerf to a very strong + cheap ability.

Su-85 already has lower XP value than other TDs of its class and Su-76 is not half as effective vs T3 tanks. The unit get Vet1 with a couple of shot since it XP value is close to obers and 222...

My bad, it starts only about 25% as bad against tanks with low armor.

That said, I'm against any veterancy requirement increase if its veterancy doesn't get improved. The SU-76 lacks any mobility or other survivability increase with veterancy so it will always remain as vulnerable as it starts.

But really, I think it's fine right now. The SU-76 lacks scaling in terms of survivability and against heavies to keep the SU-85 attractive. In return, the SU-76 reaches its maximum potential earlier. Just jacking up veterancy requirements without something in return (and no, camo would not be enough compensation for it imo) makes no sense on an already underused unit.

When i look at the stats/ numbers i come to this :

T34 cost total:

T2 --> 160/15
T3--> 240/85
T4 --> 240/90
T34 --> 300/90 AND only 10 Popcap

-->940 Manpower 280 fuel

Wehrmacht PIV cost total (live version cost, not mod!):

T1 --> 80/10
BP1 --> 100/40
T2 --> 100/20
BP2 --> 200/105
T3 --> 140/0
PIV --> 355/120 AND 12 Popcap

--> 975 Manpower 255 fuel

the soviets also have to pay for Molotov and AT nades aswell to reach parity with what ostheer gets FOR FREE

1) In atleast 2vs2-4vs4 soviet can skip any vehicles and can rush t34. Normally wehrmacht goes for 1 251hft or an 222, which each cost 200 manpower and 30 fuel extra.

a 222 costs 200 manpower and 30 fuel... but a soviet player would have to techup to AT nades costing some 125mp and 10 fuel as a counter and an AT gun on top which is 340mp... also Molotov is a mandatory upgrade for the soviets which is another 10 fuel and 60mp on top....

2) T34 is very good tank vs inf. Imo better than piv. Yes sometimes if you are clumbed wehrmacht piv hits too^^

arguable... the P4 has better scatter values ROF and aoe to the T-34... the T-34 only excels at closer ranges due to its machinegun damage... and even then the P4 can get pintle and outdo the T-34 vs infantry at all ranges...

3) The next problem is not the first T34 vs PIV. The thing is, that you can get over the whole game faster, easier and more t34 than pivs, because of less manpower cost (55) and less fuel cost (30 fuel) and 2 less popcap for each tank.

its still unfair as to why the T-34 takes more fuel to deploy/comes later than the P4 despite being outright worse...

Vet 1 stuff

4) You get already vet1 after killing 14 gren models for example, without getting self damage.
5) You get vet 1 already after 4 shot(hits) fights vs enemy PIV, without getting self damage.

6) You get also some vet, when you get damage from enemy.

So you can get fast vet1 for T34. It is just to give enemy a chance to see and react, that you got new t34 to ram your units.
So if you look close to this change, it is a very very small nerf to a very strong + cheap ability.

soo basically now I spend a lot of resources to rush what is best a worse unit to what the enemy gets... yea sure the second and third T-34 comes for a lower price but that is not an excuse for the later timing... there is 0 reason for the T-34 to come later than the P4 at all and even less justification for the current nerf...

Vet 1 stuff

4) You get already vet1 after killing 14 gren models for example, without getting self damage.
5) You get vet 1 already after 4 shot(hits) fights vs enemy PIV, without getting self damage.

6) You get also some vet, when you get damage from enemy.

So you can get fast vet1 for T34. It is just to give enemy a chance to see and react, that you got new t34 to ram your units.
So if you look close to this change, it is a very very small nerf to a very strong + cheap ability.

This all looks absurd. Suicide Veteran Unit in the game is the main mechanic of which veterancy and the preservation of veteran units. Just remove the ability, you do not need to come up with stupid solutions when the solution is simple. If the new Ram is adopted, it will not solve the T-34 problem, it will create a new T-34 problem, take away this ridiculous veterancy.

the idea of the T-34 coming out later than the panzer 4 is absurd... no reason for the T-34 to come soo late


imagine the amount of rage and screaming there would be in the game if we made the 222 come after the T-70

My bad, it starts only about 25% as bad against tanks with low armor.

That said, I'm against any veterancy requirement increase if its veterancy doesn't get improved. The SU-76 lacks any mobility or other survivability increase with veterancy so it will always remain as vulnerable as it starts.

Xp value is determined by units cost and role it should be inline with other similar units.

There are many unit that do not get "survivability increase" with vet and it vet is not bad.

In addition the unit has range 60 and barrage range 80 so it can be kept out of harms way and I a not sure how much a "survivability increase" would benefit the unit.

But I am all for looking making for better designed vet bonuses for the specific unit.

But really, I think it's fine right now. The SU-76 lacks scaling in terms of survivability and against heavies to keep the SU-85 attractive. In return, the SU-76 reaches its maximum potential earlier. Just jacking up veterancy requirements without something in return (and no, camo would not be enough compensation for it imo) makes no sense on an already underused unit.

The unit is underused because there are better option not because it not cost efficient.

We have to disagree about the vet bonuses:
1) Tracking
allows mini map info allow to use mini map to fire barrages into the fOW

2) +30% accuracy
a solid bonus

-25% recharge time of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability
a good bonus

+16.7% damage.
A great bonus it that also applies to barrage making one of the few barrage that can one shot entities. It should actually be removed from barrage

3)+25% reload speed
A solid bonus

+25% rotation speed
A solid bonus

+11.1% range of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.
One of longest range barrage has increased range

The bonus are all good but feel free to suggest others.

snip

The bonus are all good but feel free to suggest others.

The same survivability bonus other turretless TD's have, for consistency:
+20% maximum speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.

Can remove the barrage bonusses for all I care.

Only if veterancy requirements get increased of course.

3) The next problem is not the first T34 vs PIV. The thing is, that you can get over the whole game faster, easier and more t34 than pivs, because of less manpower cost (55) and less fuel cost (30 fuel) and 2 less popcap for each tank.

But even though you can pump out more, they don't become more effective with numbers, they still suck at AT. It's never worth getting 5 t34/76 because they penetrate so unreliably. As far as I'm concerned I'm ok with that, but ram helps alleviate their lackluster AT performances. I agree its AI capabilities are definitely usable and have their place, but I think that your argument of "you can make more" doesn't consider the fact that making more of them doesn't put them on an equal footing as, say, the PIV. Also, in late game they are pretty much useless which, again, I'm fine with. But from the changes I see here, I see no reason to build them at any point, and would prefer going for double t-70 haha.

Ram gave them a situational opportunity to essentially sacrifice themselves and let other units do the AT job. A ram by itself doesn't do anything. And furthermore, getting a T34/76 at vet 1 is not as easy as you make it seem to, since their At performances are lackluster.

tl;dr I think you should leave them exactly as they are

But even though you can pump out more, they don't become more effective with numbers, they still suck at AT. It's never worth getting 5 t34/76 because they penetrate so unreliably. As far as I'm concerned I'm ok with that, but ram helps alleviate their lackluster AT performances. I agree its AI capabilities are definitely usable and have their place, but I think that your argument of "you can make more" doesn't consider the fact that making more of them doesn't put them on an equal footing as, say, the PIV. Also, in late game they are pretty much useless which, again, I'm fine with. But from the changes I see here, I see no reason to build them at any point, and would prefer going for double t-70 haha.

Ram gave them a situational opportunity to essentially sacrifice themselves and let other units do the AT job. A ram by itself doesn't do anything. And furthermore, getting a T34/76 at vet 1 is not as easy as you make it seem to, since their At performances are lackluster.

tl;dr I think you should leave them exactly as they are

but in reality, rarely see it happens. t34 ram always followed by offmap skills

i test a little bit, and i think t34 ram now is a trash

but in reality, rarely see it happens. t34 ram always followed by offmap skills

i test a little bit, and i think t34 ram now is a trash

the point is meganerfing ram like so just makes the unit pointless... it would have been better had they just replaced ram with APCR or something but nooo...

The same survivability bonus other turretless TD's have, for consistency:
+20% maximum speed.
+20% ac/de-celeration.

I was confused and though you where talking about HP/armor since those are mobility buffs

The problem is that "consistency" applies only if the also start from the same base line and they do not.

A vet 3 SU76 has:
Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.3 Rotate: 40 !!!

compared to
Stug III G
Speed: 7.2 Accel: 2.1 Rotate: 33.6

JP
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 1.9 Rotate: 24 !!!

Su-85
Speed: 6.8 Accel: 2.1 Rotate: 26.

I am under the impression that the change in cone will help the unit to begin with. At this point I have to point out again that have little issue with changing the vet bonus and making better for the unit.

Can remove the barrage bonusses for all I care.

Only if veterancy requirements get increased of course.

Point here is that XP value has to do with price of vehicle and both SU-76 and SU-85 did not have the XP values adjusted when the price changed. That makes the gain veterancy faster while giving less XP when they are being hit. Using XP values to solve balance issues is step in the wrong direction that should be avoided.

Why does 85 even have ram at this point? Give this thing smoke shells or some other utility, capture territory and ram on tank costing 130 fuel and requiring doctrine is not okay

So folks know the pen increase on the T 34 was only to the ram ability not the main gun. Seen a couple people interpret that incorrectly already.

Why does 85 even have ram at this point? Give this thing smoke shells or some other utility, capture territory and ram on tank costing 130 fuel and requiring doctrine is not okay

Agree T34/85 shouldn't have ram. I guess this was just done because Relic didn't want to bother adding a new ability and so just copy-pasted ram from the 76 variant.

Just give the T34/85 some sort of muni-based vet 1 ability. Can be inspired by other existing abilities, just not ram on what is supposed to be a premium medium tank.

I don't like the vet 1 T34 ram ideas. Giving a unit a suicide ability for vet 1 seems to go against game design. I would like to see them to replaced by different abilities.

t34/76 smoke shell: speed abilities seem like an axis thing so i would propose ot gets a smoke shell like the Cromwell

T34/85 radio net: A radio net like the Sherman seems a good fit for the 85, if not smoke would also work.

3) The next problem is not the first T34 vs PIV. The thing is, that you can get over the whole game faster, easier and more t34 than pivs, because of less manpower cost (55) and less fuel cost (30 fuel) and 2 less popcap for each tank.

Other factions don't really need to pump out more mediums in the first place. It's not the cheapest tank that is most cost efficient. It's the one that survives and gets vet. The reason why OKW PIV or T34/85 are so much better than other mediums is because they can easily stay alive with decent enough micro due to their superb armour and/or HP pool, and this is also why heavies so popular on previous patch. Thanks to that you can save massive amount of resources just by not losing tanks while also gaining vet. While stock OST PIV without vet 2 isn't so tanky as other mediums, it still has mutiple vet abilities that heavily improve its survivability and specifically in the SOV matchup it doesn't have to fear anything other than SU 85 and ZIS. Baby AT guns, T34 and Cons can only force it to retreat, not kill it.

T34 meanwhile does the exact opposite in later stages of the game, it tends to bleed resources. At the same time it has pretty low performance per pop. For 10 pop you get decent AI, no armour to speak of and highly unreliable AT. Other mediums except for Cromwell all bring better AI, AT to tackle mediums and armour that usually warrants at least one bounce in a direct engagement, so double the power/utility for only 20–40 % more pop. In that light T34/76 doesn't appear so efficient, does it?

In the light of this discussion, I think comapring T34/76 with PIV is not even the correct thing to do. It should be comapred to Ostwind instead, as the price is similar, AI performance is slightly worse and both of them can only damage opponent's medium through rear armour and both of them suck in long high pop games. While T34 is technically better at AT, Ostwind typically goes up against low-armour targets like the T34, whereas T34 faces mediums with high armour like the PIV or Panther. But Ostwind hits the field at even better timing than the PIV...

how about giving Penal Battalion access to 1 upgrade B.A.R for 60 munitions that would help them scale better late game and would be somewhat historical since when Germany and the Soviets invaded Poland they captured a lot of polish B.A.RS (Browning wz. 1928)

Ppl complained that T34\76 is only good is for ram, while ram is beeing stupid ability. Now ppl complain that ram is behind vet1.

Realistically speaking, RAM right now is usable only to cheese it out with IL-2 bombinb\Strafe run. Other then that you are not gonna need or use ram on regular bases.

On the other hand ram+offmaps are batshit OP cheesing, and this is why RAM is being locked under vet1. At least players who want to cheese out heavy tanks, will be requared to play with t34 a bit before they can do it.