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[Winter Balance Update] General Discussion

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8 Jan 2021, 08:47 AM
#721
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



I thouhgt okw panther also had 9 secs reload before but i was mistaken.

But in the end allies dont go meds in bigger games because how much better the panther is and recource inflation allows them to come at the same time and easely be replaced if lost. In turn allied td's make axis mediums redundant but keep panthers and tiger/kt in check.

The problem of JP simply is not the Panther.

If one want to fight allied medium one has little reason to invest more resources than unit he fighting especially since JP can not chase the medium and can even be circle strafed.

One is facing allied medium he is better of building a PzIV that can fight them but also has AI for similar price.
8 Jan 2021, 10:56 AM
#722
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:47 AMVipper

The problem of JP simply is not the Panther.

If one want to fight allied medium one has little reason to invest more resources than unit he fighting especially since JP can not chase the medium and can even be circle strafed.

One is facing allied medium he is better of building a PzIV that can fight them but also has AI for similar price.

Yes, what Vipper's saying is that for TDs like the SU85 and JP, that can't chase mediums and be circle strafed, you need a decent medium tank, e.g. the PzIV, to face other mediums.
8 Jan 2021, 11:01 AM
#723
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:47 AMVipper

The problem of JP simply is not the Panther.

If one want to fight allied medium one has little reason to invest more resources than unit he fighting especially since JP can not chase the medium and can even be circle strafed.

One is facing allied medium he is better of building a PzIV that can fight them but also has AI for similar price.


Firefly, SU-85 and Jackson all cost more then ost P4 and their respective meds can fight ost P4 only until vet2, then its one way stomp and its not like P4 doesn't have advantage already up to that point.

Don't mention SU-76 until it stops being an unused meme.

So... what you are basically saying is allies TDs should be cheaper or their meds buffed to P4 level?
8 Jan 2021, 11:25 AM
#724
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Yes, what Vipper's saying is that for TDs like the SU85 and JP, that can't chase mediums and be circle strafed, you need a decent medium tank, e.g. the PzIV, to face other mediums.

What I am saying is that JP issue has very little do with Panther. Panther could made to be less effective vs mediums and people would still not build JPs when facing mediums.

An okw player has little reason to go JP if his facing allied mediums, since it cost is much higher then them and PzIV J is good enough with a similar and with AI.
8 Jan 2021, 11:29 AM
#725
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:25 AMVipper

What I am saying is that JP issue has very little do with Panther.

An okw player has little reason to go JP if his facing allied mediums, since it cost is much higher then them and PzIV J is enough.

Yes, the JP is much more like the SU85 than the Panther.

And I see your implication: that the SU85 is the top end of sov TD, while OKW still has panther, JT and KT to go to if their JP is at risk of being circle strafed, not to mention an excellent medium P4.

Good point btw, the panther is indeed excellent at circle-strafing the SU85 (and would also circle strafe the JP if it had to face it, ofc; e.g. if one got captured).
8 Jan 2021, 11:36 AM
#726
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Yes, the JP is much more like the SU85 than the Panther.

And I see your implication: that the SU85 is the top end of sov TD, while OKW still has panther, JT and KT to go to if their JP is at risk of being circle strafed, not to mention an excellent medium P4.

Good point btw, the panther is indeed excellent at circle-strafing the SU85 (and would also circle strafe the JP if it had to face it, ofc; e.g. if one got captured).

Point has very little do with Panther vs Su-85 and more to do with mediums.

Yes, SU-85 is closer to JP, a comparison with stug G would even closer in that case Stug is simple more cost efficient than JP vs mediums but that is rather irrelevant to the current debate. It has been argued that JP is not used because Panther is good vs mediums which simply is not the case.

On the other hand if you want to compare the SU-85 and JP the Su-85 is cheaper, with significantly lower XP value, with better mobility, having the same pop while it superior vs heavily armored target with its superior penetration. JP simply has superior frontal armor which is not that important for 60 range unit.

But If you generally want to debate TDs I would suggest you start a thread about them since this is general discussion feeback thread .
8 Jan 2021, 12:41 PM
#727
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:25 AMVipper

An okw player has little reason to go JP if his facing allied mediums, since it cost is much higher then them and PzIV J is good enough with a similar and with AI.


You are substantially wrong. A good player uses the JP4 to hard counter Allies mediums and TDs hard. It has a low target size, a high rate of fire, and more than enough penetration to take care of most allied vehicles. It is the solution against these pesky USF Jacksons. The JP4 vet bonus are fantastic. I see a lot of JP4s in 2on2+ games, more than OKW P4s, even more JP4s in narrow and long maps.

Is your solution would be to buff other allies or axis vehicles? Is that how I read it? Or why did you bring that subject up?
Pip
8 Jan 2021, 15:01 PM
#728
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



That's substantially wrong. A good player uses the JP4 to hard counter Allies mediums and TDs hard. It has a low target size, a high rate of fire, and more than enough penetration to take care of most allied vehicles. It is the solution against these pesky USF Jacksons. The JP4 vet bonus are fantastic. I see a lot of JP4s in 2on2+ games, more than OKW P4s, even more JP4s in narrow and long maps.

Is your solution would be to buff other allies or axis vehicles? Is that how I read it? Or why did you bring that subject up?


I honestly prefer building a JP4 than a PIV or PV in pretty much every game as OKW. Saves resources, and I usually have enough AI performance in my Luchs/FlakHT. (Or KT if the game goes that long).

Though the Panther has its place, I don't find it as useful for OKW as I do for OST... But that's more my playstyle causing that than anything else.
8 Jan 2021, 15:02 PM
#729
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 11:36 AMVipper

Point has very little do with Panther vs Su-85 and more to do with mediums.

Yes, SU-85 is closer to JP, a comparison with stug G would even closer in that case Stug is simple more cost efficient than JP vs mediums but that is rather irrelevant to the current debate. It has been argued that JP is not used because Panther is good vs mediums which simply is not the case.

On the other hand if you want to compare the SU-85 and JP the Su-85 is cheaper, with significantly lower XP value, with better mobility, having the same pop while it superior vs heavily armored target with its superior penetration. JP simply has superior frontal armor which is not that important for 60 range unit.

But If you generally want to debate TDs I would suggest you start a thread about them since this is general discussion feeback thread .

I'm not debating anything, in fact I'm confused why you think I am?

I'm agreeing with your assessment that vehicles like SU85 and JP suck against flanking vehicles, e.g. medium tanks and panther.

I also agree with what you said about factions needing strong medium tanks to flank enemy TDs with.

All 100% true. Please stop projecting
8 Jan 2021, 16:16 PM
#730
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3597 | Subs: 1



You are substantially wrong. A good player uses the JP4 to hard counter Allies mediums and TDs hard. It has a low target size, a high rate of fire, and more than enough penetration to take care of most allied vehicles. It is the solution against these pesky USF Jacksons. The JP4 vet bonus are fantastic. I see a lot of JP4s in 2on2+ games, more than OKW P4s, even more JP4s in narrow and long maps.

Is your solution would be to buff other allies or axis vehicles? Is that how I read it? Or why did you bring that subject up?


The more you player vs high level player to more you see jpz4.
8 Jan 2021, 17:00 PM
#731
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 16:16 PMEsxile


The more you player vs high level player to more you see jpz4.


JP4 is probably the best TD in the game, playing against Allies (if allies had a Panther level tank, then no). Has enough penetration combined with ROF to keep Pershing and similarly armoured vehicles (Churchill) at bay. Not to mention it's power against Jackson and other TDs (You can bet that one or two shots will miss the JP4 in a regular firefight with not a lot of movement). God knows I've had plenty of problems vs 2x JP4 combined with a sturmtiger that has slowly vetted to 5 because Redball doesn't allow flanking. Don't see a problem with JP4 being OP nor UP. Nor how it has anything to do with OKW Panther. Panther spam can be used as a hail Marry in teamgames. That's the biggest difference I guess.
8 Jan 2021, 19:29 PM
#732
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 08:13 AMVipper

That is no very accurate description:
A) JP was moved from T1 to T4 without nay discount and has received several nerfs since then

B)OKW had 6.3 reload not 9 but it also used to have 0.65 moving accuracy an used to gain range with vet.



I mean it's hard to gauge a discount or proper values when the faction started receiving full 100% resources.

A) The old 400mp/135f could be converted at (±70% f gain) to cost the equivalent of 400mp/192f.

B) Reload was around 6.3 but total RoF was at 7.5. Same as before, some better values and vet but the PV fuel cost was 250f


In regards to OKW vehicles, i think if Panzer authorization still requires to be bought after the OKW flak is destroyed i don't see what's the issue in moving the JPIV behind the first part of the truck.
8 Jan 2021, 19:54 PM
#733
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



I mean it's hard to gauge a discount or proper values when the faction started receiving full 100% resources.

A) The old 400mp/135f could be converted at (±70% f gain) to cost the equivalent of 400mp/192f.

But had 120 fuel less tech cost.


B) Reload was around 6.3 but total RoF was at 7.5. Same as before, some better values and vet but the PV fuel cost was 250f

And has received several nerf since then. The old JP was a beast once vetted.

And my point is different. JP not being used has very little to do with Panther's performance vs mediums. There is little reason to built one if to counter mediums.


In regards to OKW vehicles, i think if Panzer authorization still requires to be bought after the OKW flak is destroyed i don't see what's the issue in moving the JPIV behind the first part of the truck.

That would be an improvement but I doubt it would enough. I would rather see the unit balanced as 100-110 FU unit.
8 Jan 2021, 20:29 PM
#734
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jan 2021, 19:54 PMVipper

But had 120 fuel less tech cost.


And has received several nerf since then. The old JP was a beast once vetted.

And my point is different. JP not being used has very little to do with Panther's performance vs mediums. There is little reason to built one if to counter mediums.


That would be an improvement but I doubt it would enough. I would rather see the unit balanced as 100-110 FU unit.


1- Different numbers (i guess you are counting flak + PA) cause the truck were free and same as before, fuel tech cost can't directly translate 1:1 and unlocking tech gave free bonuses (healing, resource conversion/mechanics, truck gun).
What i'm saying is you can't translate old performance OKW using their direct values.

2- Old JPIV was broken and limited only by the resources you could get. The unit is still beast once vetted, it's that it's suited towards defensive bonuses mostly. Something which is less desirable in high count player games where unit volumes might make it irrelevant.

3: True. It might not be enough.

4: But i think it would strip the units from it's uniqueness if it has to be brought down to a 100/110f similar to the Stug. Penwise is already the same so in order to retain its 60 range it would probable have to had their vet 2 replace and lose the size/armor advantage. Rof would go down as well.
8 Jan 2021, 21:39 PM
#735
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



1- Different numbers (i guess you are counting flak + PA) cause the truck were free and same as before, fuel tech cost can't directly translate 1:1 and unlocking tech gave free bonuses (healing, resource conversion/mechanics, truck gun).
What i'm saying is you can't translate old performance OKW using their direct values.

2- Old JPIV was broken and limited only by the resources you could get. The unit is still beast once vetted, it's that it's suited towards defensive bonuses mostly. Something which is less desirable in high count player games where unit volumes might make it irrelevant.

Fuel cost for T4 was 80 which is 120 without the penalty.

Price of Panther had gone from 175 to 200 but not is back 185 and the price of PzIV had gone from 150 but now 140. In sort JP got a huge tech cost increase, a number of nerf and still has it high T1 price while PzIV is only 5 fuel more expensive that is original price and Panther 10 although their tech cost remained about the same.

The high price make PzIV a more attractive counter to allied mediums since its AT is enough and comes with AI also.



3: True. It might not be enough.

4: But i think it would strip the units from it's uniqueness if it has to be brought down to a 100/110f similar to the Stug. Penwise is already the same so in order to retain its 60 range it would probable have to had their vet 2 replace and lose the size/armor advantage. Rof would go down as well.


The size is similar to SU-85/stug , ROF is comparable with SU-85/Stug could be adjusted if there was a need for it.

Armore should be lowered and it will hardly make a difference. On the other hand, rotation, XP value and pop should be improved.

Then the unit would be better suited as medium counter.

Vet bonuses should be looked but that applies to most unit.
9 Jan 2021, 02:10 AM
#736
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

mhh honestly speaking , the JP4 does not need that many changes, 1 like elchino said bringing it at tier 4 base should see it more usable to counter a fast medium, 2 buff the first stike bonus to actually do something: from 25% to 50% too pen,dmg and acc
the unit has 0 pen buff and the reload is very similar to the su 85, so making first stike bonus actually useful would not be a bad idea

btw the vet req should be brought in line with su 85 cause if u see them they are basically the 3 vet of the su 85 divided in 5 but like double the vet req and they should reshufle the bonus liek this

1 Unlocks the "Cautious Movement" ability.

2 +160 additional healthpoints.
+20% accuracy.

3 For first shot fired out of camouflage:
+50% damage.
+50% accuracy.
+50% penetration.

4 +20% rotation speed.
+20% maximum speed.
+10% reload speed.

5 +15% reload speed.
+15% accuracy.

btw don't forget staggered vet bonus are less cumulative than 1 big one (30% cd > 20%+10% cd) cause math
9 Jan 2021, 03:32 AM
#737
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 578


the unit has 0 pen buff and the reload is very similar to the su 85,

3 For first shot fired out of camouflage:
+50% damage.
+50% accuracy.
+50% penetration.

I see what you're saying... That su85 should get this powerful first strike buff when it's in farsight mode because the units are so similar.

Ultimately I dont see it happening alas
9 Jan 2021, 13:19 PM
#738
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

????
9 Jan 2021, 14:48 PM
#739
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

He is implying the boost you suggest is too strong.

Increasing the pen/accuracy more is fine, not dmg. Specially when cautious movement defensive perks have never been fixed.
9 Jan 2021, 15:11 PM
#740
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

He is implying the boost you suggest is too strong.

Increasing the pen/accuracy more is fine, not dmg. Specially when cautious movement defensive perks have never been fixed.

Oddly SU-76 get same defensive perk (although it can not move) and 1.2 accuracy/penetration from vet 1 and the M-42 start with camo and first strike bonus +25% reload speed,+20% accuracy,+20% penetration contrary to RW.
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