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russian armor

Osttruppen

12 Nov 2020, 11:22 AM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1

Osttruppen have created a number of issues since they allow Ostheer to skip T1 easier. On the other hand the unit lose most of it useful in late game. Here are some suggestion that imo might improve things:

1) Unit now build from HQ

Reasons:
slow down unit production
deployment speed more consistent across maps

2) Reinforcement time to similar to pioneers

Reasons:
imo reinforcement times should normalized according to units status (support/mainline/elite/crews)

3) Medit kit vet ability replaced by "hit the dirt"

Reasons:
There is no reason for another Ostheer unit to have the same ability and "hit the dirt" fit the units defensive role.

4) LMG upgrade removed, when T4 is built unit can be "refitted" for 40 manpower with Osttruppen legion starting target size 1, that can also merge, without cover mechanism.

Reasons:
Unit to weak in late game.

Changes to the commander:
Supply drop now provides mortar or leig instead of hmg and/or pak replaced by RW.

Gustav brought inline with other similar abilities

Osttruppen reserves replaced by AT Osttruppen armed with PTRS/panzerbushe
12 Nov 2020, 12:26 PM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3458 | Subs: 2

1) No, it’s in line with other call in infantry.

2) No. So you’re saying pioneer reinforcement time is slow?

3) No, too OP.

4) No, they already scale trash and drop LMG42s.

Commander) No, awful ideas.

Edit: Just noticed the merge suggestion. Cringe.
12 Nov 2020, 12:46 PM
#3
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

How Gustav is not similar to other 12cp call-ins?
3 shells, 1 direct hit, two random hits. 200 muni-cost, warning works properly. If you want to "bring in line" 12CP abilities, then railroad artyllery is literally a golden standart.
12 Nov 2020, 13:02 PM
#4
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

Late-game prefomance of osttruppen is perfect in all game modes. 200mp+45muni for a squad, which looks a little bit similar to DP-28 cons, but without molotov, which can dig in for free into 2 different types of cover. There is no reason for "hit the dirt" and also there is no reason to remove LMG-42, ostruppen without it will not be able to vet up if called in lately on.
Their quick reinforcing is not a balance issue, it's their feature as cannon fodder/weapon crew. They cannot deal damage themself properly at timing of 251, and reinforcing bunker is more a meme than a real tactical choice.
Merge should not be able to regular osttruppen. I agree, that reserve osttruppen from mobile defence and relief infantry should be able to merge with weapon teams only, but I am afraid that those things cannot be coded.
Your suggestions will not solve a main issue with ostruppen, which is satisfying t1 skip and unsatisfying classic build play in 1v1 with all buildings being built.
12 Nov 2020, 13:06 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1

How Gustav is not similar to other 12cp call-ins?
3 shells, 1 direct hit, two random hits. 200 muni-cost, warning works properly. If you want to "bring in line" 12CP abilities, then railroad artyllery is literally a golden standart.

Check:
Concentrate Fire operations
240 Howitzer barrage
12 Nov 2020, 13:08 PM
#6
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3106 | Subs: 7

Late-game prefomance of osttruppen is perfect in all game modes.


Osttruppen are really bad in 2v2-4v4 where combat strength of units is more important than the speed at which they can cap the map and overwhelm the enemy. This is why they are meta in 1v1 but aren't seen in higher level teamgames at all.

Besides that I think that the dynamic of Osttruppen (1v1), that they are very good for the early and mid game and then drop off sharply towards the late game, is actually a very interesting strategic dilemma that makes picking Osstruppen a bit of a gamble, and thus a proper strategic choice. If the enemy can't be effectively broken early/mid game, then they will likely win the late game. It is especially interesting for Ostheer because it allows them to a aggressive early game where they are normally a defensive faction until they get tanks, so it turns around their playstyle. I don't think this dynamic should be changed (as in major buffs/changes to their late game performance), except for maybe very small changes to combat power scaling. The game needs more of these interesting dynamics and choices, not fewer.
12 Nov 2020, 13:12 PM
#7
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 13:06 PMVipper

Check:
Concentrate Fire operations
240 Howitzer barrage


There are more than 3 shells for a little bit higher price.
You want to change railroad arty into this type or you want those 2 abilities perform like railroad arty?
12 Nov 2020, 13:15 PM
#8
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3458 | Subs: 2

Osttruppen dynamic is interesting, but there’s no doubt it’s severely overperforming vs Soviets in 1s atm. The speed they hit the field with needs to be reduced asap.
12 Nov 2020, 13:18 PM
#9
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 282

Replace the faust with a frag for a start?

Buildable from HQ instead of call-in, don't see why not but also not what it should change.. If you want them to hit the field slower increase the cooldown on the commander ability. Seems like less of a fuss than placing them in the HQ.
12 Nov 2020, 13:25 PM
#10
avatar of Stark

Posts: 623 | Subs: 1



Osttruppen are really bad in 2v2-4v4 where combat strength of units is more important than the speed at which they can cap the map and overwhelm the enemy. This is why they are meta in 1v1 but aren't seen in higher level teamgames at all.

Besides that I think that the dynamic of Osttruppen (1v1), that they are very good for the early and mid game and then drop off sharply towards the late game, is actually a very interesting strategic dilemma that makes picking Osstruppen a bit of a gamble, and thus a proper strategic choice. If the enemy can't be effectively broken early/mid game, then they will likely win the late game. I don't think this dynamic should be changed (as in major buffs for their late game performance), except for maybe very small changes to combat power scaling.


+1

But there is a reason why this unit is most pick in 1v1. Simply it works with much less effort than other ostheer strats. Some small nerf is needed but some change to see this unit viable on higher game modes would be nice as well.
12 Nov 2020, 13:36 PM
#11
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82



Osttruppen are really bad in 2v2-4v4 where combat strength of units is more important than the speed at which they can cap the map and overwhelm the enemy. This is why they are meta in 1v1 but aren't seen in higher level teamgames at all.

Besides that I think that the dynamic of Osttruppen (1v1), that they are very good for the early and mid game and then drop off sharply towards the late game, is actually a very interesting strategic dilemma that makes picking Osstruppen a bit of a gamble, and thus a proper strategic choice. If the enemy can't be effectively broken early/mid game, then they will likely win the late game. I don't think this dynamic should be changed (as in major buffs for their late game performance), except for maybe very small changes to combat power scaling.


Well, I find that if 3v3/4v4 game changes to arty hellfest (every second game) then osttruppen can be used with backup of panzerwerfers and brummbärs/stugEs, while constantly digging cover and fight wounded allied mainlines. So, basically, dig in>fire salvos into the enemy>attack with osttruppen>kill main resisting enemy units with stugs or brum>flank with pgrens>dig in on conquered positions>repeat is working. Using sector artyllery if something goes wrong, like foes are double teaming or enemy arty forces retreats with lucky shots is working as well. Yes, regular ostruppen does not have a sector arty, but A) why you even pick it instead of community defence into larger game mode B) If you picked it, it can give you a great tool for picking early PIV and starting to try snowball foes with a lot of armor just like in 1v1, since doctrine provides that resource drop. The same combo with grens will be more costly and risky, since gren spacing is smaller, so ISU and Calliope are more likely to wipe grens. Both grens and ostruppen will lose to fully equipped allied infantry or vetted guards in most situations, so why you should pay more? This strat will not make anybody top10 in solo 3v3/4v4 as wehr, but top 150/100 is reachable with it, so I think it can be considered as working strat, since there is only 2, max 3 working top tier doctrines as any faction in massive game modes.
That's a lot of stuff, what else did you expect from a unit with 200 mp/45 muni cost?
12 Nov 2020, 13:43 PM
#12
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

Osttruppen dynamic is interesting, but there’s no doubt it’s severely overperforming vs Soviets in 1s atm. The speed they hit the field with needs to be reduced asap.

Why nerf one thing, when you can just revert old building time nerfs from soviet t1 an t2 units, so instead of giving soviets back that annoying monopoly of early map capping you force both players into fielding support for their cheap infantry?
12 Nov 2020, 13:57 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8


Why nerf one thing, when you can just revert old building time nerfs from soviet t1 an t2 units, so instead of giving soviets back that annoying monopoly of early map capping you force both players into fielding support for their cheap infantry?

Because building time is irrelevant if you do not have resources to build anything?
Soviets are not meant to slap a tier at the start of the game, if they were, their tech would cost half as much mp and required quarter as long build time.
Going any tier at start severely diminishes your early map control due to mp starvation.
You basically can NOT afford NOT to go 3 cons 2 CEs vs ost anymore.
12 Nov 2020, 14:08 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1

Replace the faust with a frag for a start?

Buildable from HQ instead of call-in, don't see why not but also not what it should change.. If you want them to hit the field slower increase the cooldown on the commander ability. Seems like less of a fuss than placing them in the HQ.

CP 0 call-in units are very map depended since the can appear very far or very near from fight, it is bad design that should be avoided.
12 Nov 2020, 14:11 PM
#15
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 13:57 PMKatitof

Because building time is irrelevant if you do not have resources to build anything?
Soviets are not meant to slap a tier at the start of the game, if they were, their tech would cost half as much mp and required quarter as long build time.
Going any tier at start severely diminishes your early map control due to mp starvation.
You basically can NOT afford NOT to go 3 cons 2 CEs vs ost anymore.

That can be solved by decreasimg cost and building time of tier buildings, little cost decrease of maxim or penals, which can be tested. If you nerf the only thing osttruppen have in 1v1, you will just softly remove them from the game, so they become even less relevant than penals. Buffing minorly underperforming thing is better than nerf the only thing and purpose which unit has in certain game mode. The best solution for one strat tunnels is giving more opportunities for moving, not closing the tunnel completely.
12 Nov 2020, 14:21 PM
#16
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 282


That can be solved by decreasimg cost and building time of tier buildings, little cost decrease of maxim or penals, which can be tested. If you nerf the only thing osttruppen have in 1v1, you will just softly remove them from the game, so they become even less relevant than penals. Buffing minorly underperforming thing is better than nerf the only thing and purpose which unit has in certain game mode. The best solution for one strat tunnels is giving more opportunities for moving, not closing the tunnel completely.


decreasing building cost to balance doctrinal units is not an option imo. If ostruppen are/have a problem it can only be fixed by adjusting ostruppen itself.

Could make em 1 command point without any further adjustments? Would make them less of an option as a replacement mainline unit.
12 Nov 2020, 14:34 PM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8


That can be solved by decreasimg cost and building time of tier buildings, little cost decrease of maxim or penals, which can be tested. If you nerf the only thing osttruppen have in 1v1, you will just softly remove them from the game, so they become even less relevant than penals. Buffing minorly underperforming thing is better than nerf the only thing and purpose which unit has in certain game mode. The best solution for one strat tunnels is giving more opportunities for moving, not closing the tunnel completely.

There is so many things that could cause catastrophic cascading consequences for timings, CP income and internal economy I literally have no idea where I could even start...
12 Nov 2020, 15:00 PM
#18
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3458 | Subs: 2

If you nerf the only thing osttruppen have in 1v1, you will just softly remove them from the game.


That position is absolutely laughable. Osttruppen are absolutely overpowered and a good nerf is needed to balance them out and put them at a fair power level. All this garbage I keep hearing from forums warriors how a nerf to an OP unit is equal to deleting it needs to stop ASAP, it has no bearing on reality.
12 Nov 2020, 15:47 PM
#19
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82



That position is absolutely laughable. Osttruppen are absolutely overpowered and a good nerf is needed to balance them out and put them at a fair power level. All this garbage I keep hearing from forums warriors how a nerf to an OP unit is equal to deleting it needs to stop ASAP, it has no bearing on reality.

^
I can't imagine better quote to pick to illustrate what was happening with CoH2 discusses for years.
Tunnel vision of hatred literally drives people constantly and this train is not stopping, sorry for my poor poetry. It was hate towards all factions in this game, which always led to big nerf, forgotting nerfed thing for a while, then adding a new target of hatred, then giving previosly nerfed thing some or a lot power back. Repeat until the next target.
Brits, penals, heavy tanks, call-ins, now osttruppen. People see one thing, hate it, then it is nerfed, they hate new one. They never say "give me a toy", they ask to remove a toy from opponent.
No, it never happened and never happen, you say? Let's admit that I am a big fan of no-brainers, there is a valuable strat whuch is just overshadowed by that cursed meta. So what's will happen, if we nerf ostruppen?
(Yeah, you of course will also move pgrens to T2, Karthago will be destroyed).
12 Nov 2020, 15:56 PM
#20
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 14:34 PMKatitof

There is so many things that could cause catastrophic cascading consequences for timings, CP income and internal economy I literally have no idea where I could even start...

Good ol Katitofs prophecy. Yeah, there is no tech catastrophe at all, everything is perfect, osttruppen are last fortress of OPness and people are using them just because they like to write "gg ez", and nerf to them will make game perfectly balanced masterpiece, but allowing soviets to have a maxim, cons and CE while ostheer player has 1 HMG, 1 pio squad 1 osttruppen and second nearly ready will ruin a game so badly that it is unimaginable.
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