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Osttruppen

12 Nov 2020, 23:17 PM
#41
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1

How about you guys adress grens shittiness against 2 out of 3 opposing factions?

Fast T2 and T1 skips, gave the illusion that ostheer is suddenly better then it really is.

This is why abilities like 5 men grens should have never existed. Faction is purly being competitive and better then OKW, simply due to cheese it can pull right now.

Take away cheese and they just as shitty as Soviets.
12 Nov 2020, 23:27 PM
#42
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

How about you guys adress grens shittiness against 2 out of 3 opposing factions?

Its addressed by HMG42 being in T0, sniper in T1 and reinforcement HT in T2.
If you want to play ost, like they were OKW, you'd have to actually switch to OKW, sorry.

Fast T2 and T1 skips, gave the illusion that ostheer is suddenly better then it really is.

This is why abilities like 5 men grens should have never existed. Faction is purly being competitive and better then OKW, simply due to cheese it can pull right now.

Take away cheese and they just as shitty as Soviets.

Except soviets aren't shitty, they have their strengths and weakness and are painfully predictable, but they aren't shitty.
And neither is ost without osttruppen or VSL, but it will seem like it is if you ignore that faction is balanced around combined arms instead of mashing your forehead on "build gren" hotkey.

At least once in a week we have a game, where one of the top players is using 251 in a way that makes it impossible to push grens of the field, people are pissing in awe during the stream, but afterwards Men in Black round them all up, do a flash and people proceed to REEE-ing about pure gren spam not being competitive answer to dual BAR rifles or 6 man dual bren tommies.....
12 Nov 2020, 23:36 PM
#43
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 798

ostruppen is only viable in 1v1 early game, they drop off hard in mid to late game and completely suck at all stages in team games. The problem is and will always be sh!ty 4 man grens, hence why every 1v1 ost player is crutching on ostruppen or 5 man grens
12 Nov 2020, 23:42 PM
#44
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

How about you guys adress grens shittiness against 2 out of 3 opposing factions?


The Grenadier Squad has long been the gold standard of CoH2 Infantry and if there are issues with them being ineffective, the issue lies with the other unit then. Doubling up on weapon upgrades should have never been in the game in my opinion, because it is hard to communicate to a player whether a squad has one or two automatics, and 2 automatics always beat 1 LMG.

Though it's true they have to invest more to get more power, you literally cannot invest more to counter it because you are limited by unit design, you could have 200 munitions and you wouldn't be able to get a second MG 42 on your Grenadiers; they are simply outlclassed by design.

I feel like all this talk about giving Grenadier's 3 G43's or 5 men are just band-aids to try and make them effective against 5 men Double BAR / 5 men Double Bren, not to mention the effects it will have against Conscripts who are the wood standard of Infantry who have no weapon upgrade and their T4 upgrade serves to make them a more effective punching bag.
12 Nov 2020, 23:52 PM
#45
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 23:27 PMKatitof

Its addressed by HMG42 being in T0, sniper in T1 and reinforcement HT in T2.
If you want to play ost, like they were OKW, you'd have to actually switch to OKW, sorry.

HMG42 cant cover whole map, aswell as sniper. UKF also have sniper and HMG, but guess what, this is chose units, they are not nessesry units. Try playing Ost without some of the key units and you will see that they are melting in seconds.

And even considering that, we see how it is frustrating to play against HMG and Ost snipers, because they are good, to glue togeather shit parts. Just like soviets.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 23:27 PMKatitof

Except soviets aren't shitty, they have their strengths and weakness and are painfully predictable, but they aren't shitty.

They are shitty, if your game depends on one or two key units to stay in the game, faction is objectively shit.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 23:27 PMKatitof

And neither is ost without osttruppen or VSL, but it will seem like it is if you ignore that faction is balanced around combined arms instead of mashing your forehead on "build gren" hotkey.

Neither soviets theoretically have to get T70. But it doesnt change the fact that it most cases its a must have unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2020, 23:27 PMKatitof

At least once in a week we have a game, where one of the top players is using 251 in a way that makes it impossible to push grens of the field, people are pissing in awe during the stream, but afterwards Men in Black round them all up, do a flash and people proceed to REEE-ing about pure gren spam not being competitive answer to dual BAR rifles or 6 man dual bren tommies.....

Good for them. Ones a week top players lockdown bases with rifles\cons\volks\tommies. Ones a tournamet OKW might not be picked ones. What it proves in a bigger picture?
13 Nov 2020, 00:35 AM
#46
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Ah, there we have it, another tsunami of excuses and why having OP units is more important then learning to fucking play your own faction apparently.
13 Nov 2020, 00:44 AM
#47
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 00:35 AMKatitof
Ah, there we have it, another tsunami of excuses and why having OP units is more important then learning to fucking play your own faction apparently.

In other words you pretty much just marked USF\UKF\OKW OP because their mainline inf works, dispite having all other benifits of combined arms, with the difference being that some of weaker or awaible a bit later.

And regarding learning the faction, I've already did, thank you very much. I've learned that sticking to T1 of I'm not planning to go for sniper or 5 men grens, will backfire in my face and make my game unnessesy harder and frustrating to play.
13 Nov 2020, 00:44 AM
#48
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

As i said in another thread, why not re-implement the reduced capping speed they had when released?
13 Nov 2020, 02:00 AM
#49
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


That would buff 5 Gren starts with all of them getting VSL. Not very healthy for coh2.

Well obviously VSL Grens are due for a nerf.
13 Nov 2020, 15:17 PM
#50
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

The issue with LMG Grens is that they are good in a vacuum but when it comes to actual matches they are rather inflexible in combat. They are pretty good at max range but when you have to attack your opponent they struggle greatly due to being squishy before Vet 3 and not being able to use the LMG on the move at all. They also have the highest reinforce cost of mainline infantry until Tier 4 is built which drops it to 28 from 30. Now of course they have less models per squad but due to how squishy they are I find they drop models like crazy before they get their Vet 3 bonus. I think if Grens had a more versatile upgrade instead of the LMG42 they would actually be pretty solid. Maybe swap LMG's and G43's and give them a third G43 for an increase in muni cost to 60 from 45. Make the LMG-42 doctrinal like the M1919 for USF. So instead every one uses 5-man upgrade because it gives Grens great durability and isn't much weaker than the firepower the LMG provides. VSL definitely needs to have the 10% received accuracy bonus that you get for upgrading removed.
Pip
13 Nov 2020, 20:53 PM
#51
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 15:17 PMClarity
The issue with LMG Grens is that they are good in a vacuum but when it comes to actual matches they are rather inflexible in combat. They are pretty good at max range but when you have to attack your opponent they struggle greatly due to being squishy before Vet 3 and not being able to use the LMG on the move at all. They also have the highest reinforce cost of mainline infantry until Tier 4 is built which drops it to 28 from 30. Now of course they have less models per squad but due to how squishy they are I find they drop models like crazy before they get their Vet 3 bonus. I think if Grens had a more versatile upgrade instead of the LMG42 they would actually be pretty solid. Maybe swap LMG's and G43's and give them a third G43 for an increase in muni cost to 60 from 45. Make the LMG-42 doctrinal like the M1919 for USF. So instead every one uses 5-man upgrade because it gives Grens great durability and isn't much weaker than the firepower the LMG provides. VSL definitely needs to have the 10% received accuracy bonus that you get for upgrading removed.


Ostensibly Pgrens are supposed to fill the "assault" role for Ostheer. Grens are indeed "meant" to hang back and shoot things from max range as much as possible.

Im not sure the G43 and MG42 need switching, really.
13 Nov 2020, 23:02 PM
#52
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 15:17 PMClarity
The issue with LMG Grens is that they are good in a vacuum but when it comes to actual matches they are rather inflexible in combat. They are pretty good at max range but when you have to attack your opponent they struggle greatly due to being squishy before Vet 3 and not being able to use the LMG on the move at all.


Select your unit in game, press q key, click on an area. Your unit will moove there and it will automatically stop to shoot if there is an ennemy.

That's the only thing you got to rememeber with grenadier.
13 Nov 2020, 23:07 PM
#53
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1

As i said in another thread, why not re-implement the reduced capping speed they had when released?


This has to be the worst idea i have ever heard. you don't balance units by modifying their capping speed. Relic did many thing wrong with units balance but there is an obvious reason why they removed this debuff.
13 Nov 2020, 23:17 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


there is an obvious reason why they removed this debuff

Yea, the fact that osttruppen no longer have 120mp cost and 15 seconds cooldown.

Other then that, there still is a few units with modified capping/decapping speed, so it only went away from osttruppen once you no longer could field 4 of them by the time soviet ends building a tier.
13 Nov 2020, 23:59 PM
#55
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



This has to be the worst idea i have ever heard. you don't balance units by modifying their capping speed. Relic did many thing wrong with units balance but there is an obvious reason why they removed this debuff.


The unit is only problematic on 1v1, therefore they type of nerf it should get should try to compromise as little as possible performance on other game modes if possible (not like Osstruppen should necessary be viable on all modes).

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of other units with positive capping speeds still in the game.
14 Nov 2020, 09:46 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

Imo the current "Osttruppen" situation highlight two separate issues.

1) The timing of "elite/semi-elite" units.

"Osttruppen" themselves have not been buffed but instead allow skipping T1 for faster PG. The imo is an indication that the timing of such infatry should be delayed.

The timing of PG is not cause of the issue since at T2 they are simply too late (similar to obers) and with skipping T1 they are too early the solution imo should be to delay allied infatry power spikes. That would benefit grenadiers PG and Ober. If allied powerful infatry are available early they should follow PF design and start weaker but upgrade available to them.

2) The shock value of light vehicles

Skipping T1 also allows ostheer access to 222/251. This imo is again an indication of the light vehicles shock value should be looked at and some changes should be made to their counter. Light vehicles could become less lethal but more durable and with more utility while the Ostheer could get back their 221 as counter to "micro lights/snipers" and the 222 could be delayed becoming more expensive and designed more like a soft counter to light tank.
14 Nov 2020, 14:51 PM
#57
avatar of YeltsinDeathBrigades

Posts: 82

At the same time when artillery officer was changed, developers (or balance team, don't remember when balance went on voluntary wheels) gave wehrmacht a possibility to have fausts without t1 by building a t2 only. This was implemented directly to make ostruppen more attractive choice.
I am not completely sure, but reverting this change and forcing wehrmacht to backtech into t1 later looks tasty to my teeth.
If players feel, that t1 opening as wehr is not giving satisfaction and still want to skip it early on, they are forced to build it later.
Also if opponents are going for LV wehrmacht players are changed from position of stalling until faust into investing for it directly, which also looks neat imo.
14 Nov 2020, 15:01 PM
#58
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

Maybe remove the Faust from them and give them a anti-tank upgrade instead of the lmg after t4 tech? So they can get abused by light vehicles like Assgrens and on the other side have some more use in the late game/ teamgames as cheap anti-tank units. That could either be ptrs/panzerbüchse as a soft at or 1/2 shrecks as hard at.
14 Nov 2020, 17:43 PM
#59
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Nov 2020, 15:01 PMGeblobt
Maybe remove the Faust from them and give them a anti-tank upgrade instead of the lmg after t4 tech? So they can get abused by light vehicles like Assgrens and on the other side have some more use in the late game/ teamgames as cheap anti-tank units. That could either be ptrs/panzerbüchse as a soft at or 1/2 shrecks as hard at.


If you don't give them same DPS as guards they will be useless as AT. Faust is the last thing that should be removed. They are like paper, and T4 LMG42 isn't the problem.

Edit: The solution have to nerf them in 1vs1 and buff them in 3v3+.

Maybe slow them down outside of cover, like CoH1 Brits. Remove the T4 LMG42 upgrade, give them 2 weaponslots and replace T4 with an battle-upgrade, removing the slow-down outside of cover, maybe permanent attack-bonus (so the don't need cover anymore) etc.

So they can't spam 1vs1 maps anymore, but in multiplayer they still stay good Def. units.
14 Nov 2020, 19:38 PM
#60
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2020, 20:53 PMPip


Ostensibly Pgrens are supposed to fill the "assault" role for Ostheer. Grens are indeed "meant" to hang back and shoot things from max range as much as possible.

Im not sure the G43 and MG42 need switching, really.


Again in a vacuum this seems good and from a defensive position behind good cover they work well but when it comes to actually being able to take ground back which isn't P-Grens role either they kind of need to be the ones that can push. Almost all other mainline infantry can be used more aggressively than Grens. Again nerf VSL and Ostruppen and all of that broken shit but the main issue is Grens don't work well against USF/UKF currently. Either make Grens better in those matchups or tweak Tommies and Riflemen. I would prefer tweaking Tommies and Rifles but most people like to buff everything.
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