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State of OKW in the meta

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26 Aug 2020, 23:19 PM
#181
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Aug 2020, 20:27 PMSerrith


Its a good trade ratio under the assumption it's successful, but there's the question of how likely is it to succeed.

Another example of a dive might be diving a USF base with a panzer 4 to snipe the ambo. You are potentially trading 120 fuel for 10 fuel, but the risk associated is much lower because the panzer 4 only needs to get one shot off, is far more durable then the kubel and that you know exactly where the ambo is at basically all times.


Even if it forces the sniper to retreat, you win. In either way getting a kubel is a clear victory over the sniper. It will force a retreat at the very least and with a bit (rank 1-1000 skill) of skill, it kills. Kubel can cap, is fast, can easily harass max range troops out of cover and bleed manpower. It fulfills multiple roles easily. It's especially good with 2x sturmpios opening on most maps in teamgames. Can't tell how many times I've fussed about a rogue kubel harassing rifles and giving sturmpios a chance to get up close and personal.

Kubel forcing a retreat from sniper is a clear win in any textbook
27 Aug 2020, 06:47 AM
#182
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Even if it doesn't KILL the sniper it's going to tie up more resources than it costs defending the sniper. 210mp to make a 360mp unit take more care is a solid investment considering how much else it can do. If it got much better at sniping and he sniper it would need a cost increase, especially since both allied snipers require a bit of tech to field.



Even if it forces the sniper to retreat, you win. In either way getting a kubel is a clear victory over the sniper. It will force a retreat at the very least and with a bit (rank 1-1000 skill) of skill, it kills. Kubel can cap, is fast, can easily harass max range troops out of cover and bleed manpower. It fulfills multiple roles easily. It's especially good with 2x sturmpios opening on most maps in teamgames. Can't tell how many times I've fussed about a rogue kubel harassing rifles and giving sturmpios a chance to get up close and personal.

Kubel forcing a retreat from sniper is a clear win in any textbook



Yes. I understand that forcing the enemy sniper to retreat is a win. Is forcing the sniper to retreat but losing the kubel in the process still a win?
27 Aug 2020, 07:06 AM
#183
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


and with a bit (rank 1-1000 skill) of skill, it kills.


This way of arguing is not a one way street. If your enemy is rank 1-1000 he probably won't get his sniper killed by a kubel either. Even if you retreat your sniper after the kubel starts shoting at it you still have more than a decent change to surive it even when you have no mines / literally no Infantry with snares nearby ( at least on 2 vs 2 / 1 vs 1 maps ) .

I can't even remember getting my sniper killed by a kubel even once ( same applies the other way around )



Kubel can cap, is fast, can easily harass max range troops out of cover


If only USF had a similar unit ...

Also I would never ever mention

bleed manpower.
and
Kubel
in the same sentence




27 Aug 2020, 23:03 PM
#184
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682

Don't remember the last time I built a kubel in a 3v3 tbh.
28 Aug 2020, 05:56 AM
#185
avatar of Lemethy

Posts: 21

Maybe boost the Kubel health a tiny little bit? that would help alot. :)
28 Aug 2020, 07:03 AM
#186
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

1. I'd start with truck upgrades to be available on both battlegroup and mechanized trucks. Those upgrades cost is pretty prohibitive enough (won't be built twice) but an OKW player should be able to upgrade both truck even with repair bots and healing.
2. I'd stick to the concept of "mechanized" when it comes OKW. I'd try "buffing" volks with a possibility to forfeit one weapon and get a sweeper which would be permanent (no holster) and this way make them repair and sweep. This way they could support armour more effectively. This would be in line wit the concept of OKW being "mobile" as they would increase field presence of OKW armour a bit. Volks would still probably be inferior and more expensive to UKF sappers this way.
28 Aug 2020, 09:47 AM
#187
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

1. I'd start with truck upgrades to be available on both battlegroup and mechanized trucks. Those upgrades cost is pretty prohibitive enough (won't be built twice) but an OKW player should be able to upgrade both truck even with repair bots and healing.
2. I'd stick to the concept of "mechanized" when it comes OKW. I'd try "buffing" volks with a possibility to forfeit one weapon and get a sweeper which would be permanent (no holster) and this way make them repair and sweep. This way they could support armour more effectively. This would be in line wit the concept of OKW being "mobile" as they would increase field presence of OKW armour a bit. Volks would still probably be inferior and more expensive to UKF sappers this way.




Why just neft stum and make them cheaper so okw can have cheaper repair. By the mean of delay stg. If okw doesn't running around with fully assault rifle squad right from minute 0, a neft to section or event rifle's early game power lv can be done right after. Then suddenly ost will find themselves in better state.
28 Aug 2020, 10:42 AM
#188
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351





Why just neft stum and make them cheaper so okw can have cheaper repair. By the mean of delay stg. If okw doesn't running around with fully assault rifle squad right from minute 0, a neft to section or event rifle's early game power lv can be done right after. Then suddenly ost will find themselves in better state.

It's not a bad approach if priced correctly.

Still the healing problem remains unsolved.

I still would opt for making volks for viable through non combat buffs. They would scale better for late game with what I suggested. But I guess all options are on the table. I would be a bit that Ur proposal might just go too deep and lead to some difficult to predict outcomes.
28 Aug 2020, 13:24 PM
#189
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

I would like to see Sander's idea of a tech split going live. It would be a tremendous help if OKW players would get cheaper access to healing and indirect fire. Other advantages of this idea: There would be no timing issues and BG ( backteching would be more attractive.
28 Aug 2020, 14:03 PM
#190
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2020, 13:24 PMSmartie
I would like to see Sander's idea of a tech split going live. It would be a tremendous help if OKW players would get cheaper access to healing and indirect fire. Other advantages of this idea: There would be no timing issues and BG ( backteching would be more attractive.

Yep. All Sander's ideas make a lot of sense
28 Aug 2020, 21:11 PM
#191
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 149

<Deleted due to being a very stupid idea>
29 Aug 2020, 07:08 AM
#192
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143

No MG :romeoHype:
You know that an Mg that goes down with one AT shot is one of most brutal nerfs i could think of right now?

Retreating on Rak needs a rework. But not because it can retreat. Its because the weapon team blobs up when retreating resulting them to get wiped at a much higher chance. Dodging a grenade with a rak is way more profitable than retreating from it. Overall the retreat function is not as good as people think. You loose controll over a unit thats not moving fast enough do evade.
But thats another topic...

29 Aug 2020, 08:07 AM
#193
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Retreating on Rak needs a rework. But not because it can retreat. Its because the weapon team blobs up when retreating resulting them to get wiped at a much higher chance. Dodging a grenade with a rak is way more profitable than retreating from it. Overall the retreat function is not as good as people think. You loose controll over a unit thats not moving fast enough do evade.
But thats another topic...



Regardless of whether the Rak bunches up on retreat or if retreat is too strong, the Raketen actually has retreat which no other AT gun has. There are no direct disadvantages to having it, and tons of actual advantages like received accuracy reduction, and faster return to base so you can heal it up quicker.
29 Aug 2020, 09:13 AM
#194
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2020, 08:07 AMSerrith
There are no direct disadvantages to having it


It's part of the total package of advantages and disadvantages. Unlike other ATGs, it doesn't have a gun shield (which even if broken does offer some advantages), inferior range, slightly worse accuracy and penetration, and a worse scatter pattern due to the low gun height.

I personally think the net sum puts it on equal terms with other ATGs since the last rework, with some distinctive advantages and disadvantages that should be kept for the sake of diversity, which is something to strive for as much as possible. I don't mind the retreat function at all and I think the current version is miles better than the cheesy stealth creep (and very unreliable at actual ATG duties) version that we had before.
29 Aug 2020, 09:29 AM
#195
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



It's part of the total package of advantages and disadvantages. Unlike other ATGs, it doesn't have a gun shield (which even if broken does offer some advantages), inferior range, slightly worse accuracy and penetration, and a worse scatter pattern due to the low gun height.

I personally think the net sum puts it on equal terms with other ATGs since the last rework, with some distinctive advantages and disadvantages that should be kept for the sake of diversity, which is something to strive for as much as possible. I don't mind the retreat function at all and I think the current version is miles better than the cheesy stealth creep (and very unreliable at actual ATG duties) version that we had before.

RW still has room for improvement.

The different camo mechanism than other ATGs is simply unnecessary and the vet bonuses need to be look at.
29 Aug 2020, 09:46 AM
#196
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783



It's part of the total package of advantages and disadvantages. Unlike other ATGs, it doesn't have a gun shield (which even if broken does offer some advantages), inferior range, slightly worse accuracy and penetration, and a worse scatter pattern due to the low gun height.

I personally think the net sum puts it on equal terms with other ATGs since the last rework, with some distinctive advantages and disadvantages that should be kept for the sake of diversity, which is something to strive for as much as possible. I don't mind the retreat function at all and I think the current version is miles better than the cheesy stealth creep (and very unreliable at actual ATG duties) version that we had before.


Oh I don't disagree. My point was that the ability to retreat in and of itself isn't a drawbacks as you can always choose not to use it.
29 Aug 2020, 10:09 AM
#197
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2020, 09:46 AMSerrith


Oh I don't disagree. My point was that the ability to retreat in and of itself isn't a drawbacks as you can always choose not to use it.

There is a slight drawback to it since it replaces reverse but it is a minor one.
29 Aug 2020, 20:39 PM
#198
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2020, 10:09 AMVipper

There is a slight drawback to it since it replaces reverse but it is a minor one.

Yea... A few games back I meant to back up my rak... It backed up all right....
29 Aug 2020, 20:56 PM
#199
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515


Yea... A few games back I meant to back up my rak... It backed up all right....


Raketen lives by that old adage. "If you're doing something, do it right". No half assing when it comes to backing up.

Anyhoo, the raketen has a lot of potential vs mediums and lights with it's retreat since you can place them on the front-line aggressively. Alpha strike I believe some call it. Easily kill lights and mediums and retreat before the enemy reacts.
29 Aug 2020, 21:38 PM
#200
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 682


Yea... A few games back I meant to back up my rak... It backed up all right....


if you click slightly behind it it'll go in reverse, old style coh movement.
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