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29 Aug 2020, 21:57 PM
#201
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 890

Is it time for another Raketen OP thread lol?
30 Aug 2020, 03:57 AM
#202
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2020, 21:38 PMKoRneY


if you click slightly behind it it'll go in reverse, old style coh movement.

Oh I know, I just forgot for a moment I was using a rak. Just long enough to send er right home...
30 Aug 2020, 05:35 AM
#203
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 149

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to hear why vetted AT penals can take on Vet 0 MG34 Obers.

This happened to me about five minutes ago.

Was red cover vs. red cover too.

Obers are coming way too late to really do anything 1v1.

Honestly, fallschims are a better investment, they come earlier, they get weapon unlock eariler, and they can be airdropped anywhere.
30 Aug 2020, 05:54 AM
#204
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 633


Oh I know, I just forgot for a moment I was using a rak. Just long enough to send er right home...


Oh, my bad, didn't mean to patronize
30 Aug 2020, 07:01 AM
#205
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2879 | Subs: 2

Just out of curiosity, I'd like to hear why vetted AT penals can take on Vet 0 MG34 Obers.

This happened to me about five minutes ago.

Was red cover vs. red cover too.

Obers are coming way too late to really do anything 1v1.

Honestly, fallschims are a better investment, they come earlier, they get weapon unlock eariler, and they can be airdropped anywhere.

Retest that, because either it was wrong perception and you did not see a supporting squad or just RNG. The normal KarJ of an Obersoldat is about equal to a vet3 Penal SVT. So with unupgraded Obers this could happen regularly, but the MG34 blows the DPS through the roof
30 Aug 2020, 07:12 AM
#206
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


Retest that, because either it was wrong perception and you did not see a supporting squad or just RNG. The normal KarJ of an Obersoldat is about equal to a vet3 Penal SVT. So with unupgraded Obers this could happen regularly, but the MG34 blows the DPS through the roof


I just testet it. It can actually happen. But only on close to mid range ( and only if Obers are Vet 0 and Penals Vet 3).
30 Aug 2020, 07:32 AM
#207
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2879 | Subs: 2



I just testet it. It can actually happen. But only on close to mid range ( and only if Obers are Vet 0 and Penals Vet 3).


I can't test right now, but if that is true it begs the question how accurate the coh2 stats page is (I mean the updated one). The two rifles are very similar regarding their profiles, the MG34 is a decent bit better even at closer ranges and Obers should have way superior DPS retention.
Did you b any change notice model sniping vs Obersoldaten due to formation issues?
30 Aug 2020, 08:02 AM
#208
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



I can't test right now, but if that is true it begs the question how accurate the coh2 stats page is (I mean the updated one). The two rifles are very similar regarding their profiles, the MG34 is a decent bit better even at closer ranges and Obers should have way superior DPS retention.
Did you b any change notice model sniping vs Obersoldaten due to formation issues?

I think that there are simply too many stats that affect the outcome to actually be able to stat-check it. Received accuracy, aim time, accuracy, reloads, cooldowns to name just a few and there might be a dozen others. My personal experience is that models drop much more quickly on those 4 men squads and dps changes a lot then while at the same time larger squads often lose a lot of health before the first model drops so their dps goes down later in the firefight (yet another factor to include).
30 Aug 2020, 08:15 AM
#209
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



I can't test right now, but if that is true it begs the question how accurate the coh2 stats page is (I mean the updated one). The two rifles are very similar regarding their profiles, the MG34 is a decent bit better even at closer ranges and Obers should have way superior DPS retention.
Did you b any change notice model sniping vs Obersoldaten due to formation issues?


Testet it now a few more times. Close Closerange PTRS Penals seem to win most of the time ( in my case every time ) . No sniping was done; Obers were spread out, in fact penals were a bit clumped together. Mid range Obers win (same positioning) . Closer Midrange Obers also win, although its seems that some RNG ( or not so spread out Obers ) could turn the battle in Penals favor ( although unlikely ) . Mid to close closerange Vet 3 Penals without PTRS win .

All tests done in neutral cover ( just picked a random 1 vs 1 map. For some reason its streets were neutral cover ( seems to be the case for a lot of 1 vs 1 maps ).
30 Aug 2020, 08:26 AM
#210
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Testet it now a few more times. Close Closerange PTRS Penals seem to win most of the time ( in my case every time ) . No sniping was done; Obers were spread out, in fact penals were a bit clumped together. Mid range Obers win (same positioning) . Closer Midrange Obers also win, although its seems that some RNG ( or not so spread out Obers ) could turn the battle in Penals favor ( although unlikely ) . Mid to close closerange Vet 3 Penals without PTRS win .

All tests done in neutral cover ( just picked a random 1 vs 1 map. For some reason its streets were neutral cover ( seems to be the case for a lot of 1 vs 1 maps ).

In the past there was an issue with ptrs rifles overperforming vs infantry. It got toned down but they might still inflict too much damage (I'm not saying they do but imo it needs to be checked). Anyway many many little stats affect this and it is just better to test stuff than rely on stats only.
30 Aug 2020, 08:39 AM
#211
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518


Anyway many many little stats affect this and it is just better to test stuff than rely on stats only.


I suppose someone could maybe program a tool which lets certain units fight each other like a hundred times and then writes down the outcome. This would give a pretty accurate result.

30 Aug 2020, 09:06 AM
#212
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



I suppose someone could maybe program a tool which lets certain units fight each other like a hundred times and then writes down the outcome. This would give a pretty accurate result.



It would actually be awesome! As there are also different types of cover, formation, distances, etc. There is no way it can be stat-checked. But is it really possible to do anything like this?
30 Aug 2020, 10:30 AM
#213
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1


Retest that, because either it was wrong perception and you did not see a supporting squad or just RNG. The normal KarJ of an Obersoldat is about equal to a vet3 Penal SVT. So with unupgraded Obers this could happen regularly, but the MG34 blows the DPS through the roof

Penal PTRS has an accuracy of 0.15/0.105/0.06 now if you multiply it by 1.3x.1.3x1.25 it actually goes up to 0.32/0.22/0.13 without even taking into account "to the last man".

Given that they do around 20 damage per shot their DPS is simply not negligible.
30 Aug 2020, 11:10 AM
#214
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 990 | Subs: 1



I just testet it. It can actually happen. But only on close to mid range ( and only if Obers are Vet 0 and Penals Vet 3).


Probably because of the penals passive. I'm not sure but its the only way it sounds logical, considering its 4 rifles vs 4 rifles.

Or maybe just bruteforce of the penals, considering they just shoot faster.
30 Aug 2020, 12:21 PM
#215
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2879 | Subs: 2


I think that there are simply too many stats that affect the outcome to actually be able to stat-check it. Received accuracy, aim time, accuracy, reloads, cooldowns to name just a few and there might be a dozen others. My personal experience is that models drop much more quickly on those 4 men squads and dps changes a lot then while at the same time larger squads often lose a lot of health before the first model drops so their dps goes down later in the firefight (yet another factor to include).

Most of these factors should already be calculated into the DPS chart. If Penals win then this shows how unreliable the pure DPS values are for actual combat and that other factors are much more important. Or technically the DPS calculation could be wrong as well, I am not sure if anybody has truly fact checked those graphs. Also it is still unclear if those 0,125 second delays that exist for vehicles also apply to infantry which they likely do. The last man ability that was mentioned can also be an important factor, although at this point Penals already start losing their rifles and DPS while Obers retain their MGs.

I honestly just assumed that the ~2x damage of the MG (depending on range obviously) will likely trump the RNG, but apparently this is not the case.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2020, 10:30 AMVipper

Penal PTRS has an accuracy of 0.15/0.105/0.06 now if you multiply it by 1.3x.1.3x1.25 it actually goes up to 0.32/0.22/0.13 without even taking into account "to the last man".

Given that they do around 20 damage per shot their DPS is simply not negligible.

Accuracy is not the only thing that matters. PTRS have an atrocious time between shots compared to small arms. At least their DPS is usually about 1/10 of the SVT DPS, so those two guys add about 1/5 of a model, at least normalized to infinite samples. The high damage makes them an RNG cannon vs infantry.
But as I said above, those stats might actually not mean as much as we have thought.
30 Aug 2020, 12:43 PM
#216
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1


...
Accuracy is not the only thing that matters. PTRS have an atrocious time between shots compared to small arms. At least their DPS is usually about 1/10 of the SVT DPS, so those two guys add about 1/5 of a model, at least normalized to infinite samples. The high damage makes them an RNG cannon vs infantry.
But as I said above, those stats might actually not mean as much as we have thought.

My point is that with x170% accuracy bonus from vet going up to 211% from red cover + the bonuses from "to the last man" the DPS of PTRS start counting.
30 Aug 2020, 14:07 PM
#217
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Does this only happen in neg cover? Because if so that would discount the advantages of obers smaller target size and higher accuracy and favor the penal ROF and health pool
30 Aug 2020, 14:39 PM
#218
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

Does this only happen in neg cover? Because if so that would discount the advantages of obers smaller target size and higher accuracy and favor the penal ROF and health pool

Penal get a total of x1.69 from accuracy modifier from veterancy

Another 1.25 accuracy from Read cover (total 2.57)and 1.25 damage bringing the damage up to 25.

From the last man the last penal would in addition have 1.26 accuracy (total 3.21) and 0.9 CD.
30 Aug 2020, 14:53 PM
#219
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1486

I have noticed that PTSR wielding Penals can sometimes instantly kill infantry models. Don't know if I seen it correctly or not, but it's death animation is similar to British sniper sniping models. I think that penals winning vs obers was just due to RNG with PTSR. You can notice the same thing if you target MG42 or AT gun with PTSR penals or conscripts or guards. The kar rifles will attack infantry models but PTSR rifles will 100% always attack the gun itself damaging it (white bar), with pinpoint accuracy. I think the same happens with infantry models. PTSR hits them causing great damage.
30 Aug 2020, 21:48 PM
#220
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2020, 14:39 PMVipper

Penal get a total of x1.69 from accuracy modifier from veterancy

Another 1.25 accuracy from Read cover (total 2.57)and 1.25 damage bringing the damage up to 25.

From the last man the last penal would in addition have 1.26 accuracy (total 3.21) and 0.9 CD.
. You are looking at the trees and missing the forest. I understand that penals might be beating obers right now, and the exact numbers are not necessarily important. Both fighting in neg cover both removes obers advantage of small target sizes AND plays up penals advantages of larger squad size meaning more health and more shots. Neg cover will Likley always favor large squads because it makes up for their inherent lower accuracy that keeps them balanced. If obers were going to hit the penals 9/10 times anyways but penals were only going to hit 4/10 then penals will get the better end of the bargain by having more to gain. It's basicly overkill damage but with accuracy.
What's more, 4 men that are always hitting v 6 men that are always hitting is also a recipe for disaster because overs will be targeting 50% more targets than they can engage at a time which means they are less Likley to burst down a model, while the penals on the other hand are targeting at least 1 over model with up to 3 extra shots. This isn't really a problem that balance changes can fix, neg cover impacts all the same statically but hits units that rely on accuracy (or the enemies lack of) more so.

Its kinda the inverse of when they suggested mines deal 70 damage to all models of a squad instead of killing models. Technically it hits all squads the same, but in reality it hurt the soviet much much more because it played up their weakness while removing their advantages.
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