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NKVD retreat ability vs OKW Sturm officer

2 Jun 2020, 21:26 PM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1

OKW Sturmofficer: 60 muni -> one unit retreats, doesn't work on AT-guns

NKVD Officer: 45 muni -> unit retreats + AOE suppression and retreat for surrounding units even though it's slightly slower, works on AT-guns, potentially forces an entire blob back to base

How is this balanced? I am confused.
2 Jun 2020, 21:34 PM
#2
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1

Instant 100% success ability vs Ability that is hard to hit on moving targets and does not 100% force an instant retreat if it does hit.
2 Jun 2020, 21:37 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15475 | Subs: 7

How is this balanced? I am confused.

One is 100% instant guaranteed retreat on unit you do not want to see in combat NOW.

Another one is a gimped propaganda arty that may or may not have a desired effect and target better have broken legs, because as long as it moves, it will not be effective.

You would see this as even more balanced if instead of clicking "create thread button" you've clicked "play the game button" and experienced the abilities outside of patch notes.
2 Jun 2020, 21:46 PM
#4
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2428 | Subs: 5

Also, the Sturm Offizier gets -10 cost on all abilities at vet 1 bringing the price down to 50, as well as getting 5 more range with vet 2 compared to the Commissar (+10 vs +5). And the Offizier is mostly geared towards being a combat unit now (with vet becoming a light Obers squad for a really cheap price) while the Commissar is more geared towards utility, which would make it fair to have slightly more cost effective abilities.

Given how the Sturm Offizier is already a very good unit and how the Commissar is a bit meh, I don't see any reason to change this.
3 Jun 2020, 00:37 AM
#5
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 448

Dont get me wrong, I really like the commissar and propaganda/commissar propaganda is one of my favorite abilities in the game. But it is an rng type ability, it's good for bigger engagements because of its aoe nature but the fact you cant single out a critical unit does give the OKW officer forced retreat a useful niche.
3 Jun 2020, 01:07 AM
#6
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4105 | Subs: 1

Dont get me wrong, I really like the commissar and propaganda/commissar propaganda is one of my favorite abilities in the game. But it is an rng type ability, it's good for bigger engagements because of its aoe nature but the fact you cant single out a critical unit does give the OKW officer forced retreat a useful niche.

yup. knowing that you can send that mg home and take the engagement is just huge
3 Jun 2020, 04:54 AM
#7
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 448


yup. knowing that you can send that mg home and take the engagement is just huge


To be honest, theres a lot I like about NKVD- radio intercept and commissar are great, and scorched earth is a super cool ability.

But I dont really like the AT overwatch ability, unlike AT loiters it's not guaranteed to do damage if you pull out right away(that's what she said), resulting in a somewhat expensive but very niche ability. Maybe not underpowered but not really great in 1v1s due to that niche nature.
The KV-8 is also one of those tanks that looks super cool on paper but in practice just doesnt have a place. To elaborate:
As your first medium with Sovs(and tbh most factions), 4 out of 5 times you will be grabbing a generalist medium-and basically for the same reasons all other factions get a generalist med as a first tank. But the T-34 has piss poor AT so unless you plan to swarm with them, your next vehicle is going to need to be something with a bit more anti vehicular punch, the Su85. This leaves your THIRD tank open for the KV8, and that is assuming you didn't lose either of the other two before you have the resources. On the other hand, the KV8 doesnt work well with the T-34 swarm because of its poor mobility.
I would recommend replacing the KV8 with a KV1 or some other medium-ish heavy or medium tank.

I know this has gotten a bit off topic from just the commissar abilities.
3 Jun 2020, 05:37 AM
#8
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1599 | Subs: 3

How does the Commissar relate to the NKVD topic? The Commissar in the military unit - in 1918-1942 he was a representative of the Communist Party in military units (ships), and units of the armed forces. Rename it, for example, to the NKVD officer. And rename Conscripts in to the NKVD infantry squad when choosing the NKVD commander, and for example give a sniper rifle (with the possibility of a sniper shot like the Pathfinder in AA) or DP-27.
3 Jun 2020, 07:07 AM
#9
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 448

How does the Commissar relate to the NKVD topic?


It relates because the NKVD retreat ability is on the commissar lol.
3 Jun 2020, 07:24 AM
#10
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1361 | Subs: 3

OKW Sturmofficer: 60 muni -> one unit retreats, doesn't work on AT-guns


I'm also pretty sure it still does the following: "Enemy units in a radius of 10 around the retreated squad gain 50% more accuracy for 20 seconds."

Which is the weirdest mechanic ever, as if paying 50-60 munition isn't enough of a drawback to retreat a single unit.
3 Jun 2020, 07:31 AM
#11
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1599 | Subs: 3



It relates because the NKVD retreat ability is on the commissar lol.


The NKVD had BT-7M (linear and radiated), this would well correspond to the theme of the NKVD (maybe as a commander). But then again, to make the commanders more unique and relevant to his theme, we need advanced modding tools and adding models.
3 Jun 2020, 07:49 AM
#12
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 448



The NKVD had BT-7M (linear and radiated), this would well correspond to the theme of the NKVD (maybe as a commander). But then again, to make the commanders more unique and relevant to his theme, we need advanced modding tools and adding models.


Damn, and here I thought the balance section was for discussing game balance. They should probably rename it to "Historical accuracy section" so people dont get confused.
3 Jun 2020, 10:22 AM
#13
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 211 | Subs: 1

Just use 'Target Them' and vaporise that squad you don't want to see around, looking at you Shocks/Rangers. Or 'Force Retreat' on lone MGs trying to protect a VP etc.
3 Jun 2020, 10:54 AM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2428 | Subs: 5

as if paying 50-60 munition isn't enough of a drawback to retreat a single unit.


I don't think 50-60 (let's say 50 because of how incredibly easy it is to rank the Offizier up to vet 1) munitions is a drawback at all for a guaranteed retreat on a key unit like an HMG or an elite squad (or just any squad) without having to fire a bullet (or more importantly, not having to receive any), when that allows you to win the fight and take map control. It turns munitions into saved manpower and more map control. It's a much safer investment than grenades for example.
3 Jun 2020, 11:16 AM
#15
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1



I don't think 50-60 (let's say 50 because of how incredibly easy it is to rank the Offizier up to vet 1) munitions is a drawback at all for a guaranteed retreat on a key unit like an HMG or an elite squad (or just any squad) without having to fire a bullet (or more importantly, not having to receive any), when that allows you to win the fight and take map control. It turns munitions into saved manpower and more map control. It's a much safer investment than grenades for example.


You can't use the officer properly + equip your Füssiliers until late in the game. It doesn't have very good synergy because without the G43 upgrades Füssiliers are horrible. And you don't want to use more than 1-2 Volks either because Füssiliers are just better long term. I find that frustrating when using this doctrine tbh.

3 Jun 2020, 11:17 AM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15475 | Subs: 7



You can't use the officer properly + equip your Füssiliers until late in the game. It doesn't have very good synergy because without the G43 upgrades Füssiliers are horrible. And you don't want to use more than 1-2 Volks either because Füssiliers are just better long term. I find that frustrating when using this doctrine tbh.

Maybe in 1v1.
2v2 and up there is no muni issue.
3 Jun 2020, 11:28 AM
#17
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 224



You can't use the officer properly + equip your Füssiliers until late in the game. It doesn't have very good synergy because without the G43 upgrades Füssiliers are horrible. And you don't want to use more than 1-2 Volks either because Füssiliers are just better long term. I find that frustrating when using this doctrine tbh.



well there you have the soviets which rely on zis gun barrages, muni stock for 7 men lategame mass upgrate ,mines, flamer. I do agree though that the force retreat shoudnt buff the units around the retreating sqad though. That seems a little exessive when you keep in mind that it costs 50-60 ammo
3 Jun 2020, 11:41 AM
#18
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1



well there you have the soviets which rely on zis gun barrages, muni stock for 7 men lategame mass upgrate ,mines, flamer. I do agree though that the force retreat shoudnt buff the units around the retreating sqad though. That seems a little exessive when you keep in mind that it costs 50-60 ammo


7 men upgrade is a middle to late game expense. Can't be compared to earlier game upgrades like G43s, STGs etc. Zis gun barrage is optional, nothing you need to use to have a chance. Meanwhile the G43 upgrade is absolutely mandatory or your Füssiliers have no chance of trading decently vs any mainline infantry. Mines are needed for all factions. Soviets don't need muni for healing either.

I just think the doctrine is severely limited by the muni-hungry Füssiliers + muni-hungry Officer. You can't use either to their full potential.

The biggest issue however is that you can't go Mech if you go with this doctrine because then you will not have any muni at all because of the medkits you need to rely on. So you are forced into T1 builds which are generally weaker and even then you lack muni to really use your units.
3 Jun 2020, 11:50 AM
#19
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 224

well you need to keep in mind what the selling point of an commander is. In breakthrough you get arty pfussis sturmoffi and jagdt. NKVD doesnt have the seeling point of a heavy tank or ram + bombing (at overwatch requires more skill since it needs constant vision)

So to conclude it's fine that you cant use every ability to the full extent since you have a lot of good abilities. Just remember what happened to grand offensive
3 Jun 2020, 12:44 PM
#20
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1361 | Subs: 3



I don't think 50-60 (let's say 50 because of how incredibly easy it is to rank the Offizier up to vet 1) munitions is a drawback at all for a guaranteed retreat on a key unit like an HMG or an elite squad (or just any squad) without having to fire a bullet (or more importantly, not having to receive any), when that allows you to win the fight and take map control. It turns munitions into saved manpower and more map control. It's a much safer investment than grenades for example.


Yeah, the price is fair, so why let it give a mega buff to surrounding enemy units in addition?
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