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russian armor

SU-76 - A Slight Adjustment

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2 Jun 2020, 05:44 AM
#41
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



I like the armor and accell changes. Also like the barrage discount per vet level idea

The rotation rate change i liked more than the speed anyway, also to help with responsiveness

One could also try to make the unit allot better vs "light vehicles" by adding an ability desing against those unit

One approach could be an ability or fire mode with lowe penetration and ROF but that slow light vehicles on penetration something inline with the USF mine.

2 Jun 2020, 07:54 AM
#42
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 05:44 AMVipper

One could also try to make the unit allot better vs "light vehicles" by adding an ability desing against those unit

One approach could be an ability or fire mode with lowe penetration and ROF but that slow light vehicles on penetration something inline with the USF mine.



Dedicating a (vet) ability to a single lv per game is more like a nerf imo. Assuming you replace tracking ofcourse.
I at least woudnt even consider it, if it keeps its current timing stats and cost if becomes specilized for light at.

Against ost the su76 is 100% fine imo. Against okw a bit less but nothing wrong with that.
It just arrives late, same as the m5. At the end of the lv fase. Backteching to or just teching t2 makes sure you have the siz3.

Its timing, low late game at power, fragility and easy (back)teching to zis3 make it less appealing to get.

i like the stun/slow idea. It promotes combined arms and give late game use. But it wil be an heavy rng dependant ability esp for heavy armour wich axis do not lack. I dont think it see much use. It will still limit it to lights and meds.

I think reducing cooldown for the barrage and mobility buff is what it needs next to reverting tech cost for backteching t2. Tying ptrs and at satchal to at nades will also help here.
2 Jun 2020, 08:15 AM
#43
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



SU-76
280mp, 75f, 8 pop
400mp, 75/35 armor, 20 size
6.8 or 6.9 speed, 2.3/4.4 acc/deacc, 36 or 38 rotation
120dmg, 160 far pen, 4.9-5.4 reload, 60 range

STUG-G
280mp, 90f, 10 pop
560hp, 140/70 armor, 17 size
6 speed, 2.1 accel, 28 rotation
160dmg, 170 far pen, 4.5-5.5 reload, 50 range


This vomparison is very misleading. Raw penetration values mean nothing. Also accuracy values (plus ideally scatter) is missing. I don't have their current stats at hand, but SU76 got a rework a year ago or so where its accuracy was nerfed iirc. I don't know about how it compares to the Stug at the moment.
Additionally, the increased health and the 40 difference in damage are a huge deal. It's the difference why StuG is a very effective anti medium vehicle while SOV players rarely go for an SU76 to counter mediums. SOV has more cost effevtive AT units, yes, but the SU76 is quite unreliable especially against OKW P4s and the low damage make it very hard to actually finish it off.
I don't think OPs suggestions would fix SOV T3, but I also doubt that it would make the SU76 broken.
2 Jun 2020, 08:15 AM
#44
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1971 | Subs: 2

SU-76 self-propelled guns direct support. Light howitzer is not its most basic function, but possible. I think it’s necessary to replace artillery barrage, on exchangeable ammunition - switching between HE and AT rounds, for better supporting role.
2 Jun 2020, 08:42 AM
#45
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

I really like the changes proposed in the opening thread. The unit deserves another good modification to make it viable again to adapt to evergoing changes in the game. Don't let yourself be discouraged from the few unorthodox person.
2 Jun 2020, 09:00 AM
#46
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143

Well if people insist on those buffs, StugG should get atleast 60 range

:kappa:
2 Jun 2020, 09:01 AM
#47
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Dedicating a (vet) ability to a single lv per game is more like a nerf imo. Assuming you replace tracking ofcourse.
...

The thing is that barrage is already cheap, good and get betters with veterancy:
More shots than Zis
25% recharge time of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.
+25% damage.
+25% reload speed.
+25% rotation speed.
+11.1% range of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.

The thing is actually superior to mortar starting at 80 range and going up to almost 90 and with AOE that actually kill model at first shot.

Last thing one need is make the barrage spammable especially after the buff it received.
2 Jun 2020, 09:01 AM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Well if people insist on those buffs, StugG should get atleast 60 range

:kappa:

That's not how it works.
2 Jun 2020, 09:05 AM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



This vomparison is very misleading. Raw penetration values mean nothing. Also accuracy values (plus ideally scatter) is missing. I don't have their current stats at hand, but SU76 got a rework a year ago or so where its accuracy was nerfed iirc. I don't know about how it compares to the Stug at the moment.
Additionally, the increased health and the 40 difference in damage are a huge deal. It's the difference why StuG is a very effective anti medium vehicle while SOV players rarely go for an SU76 to counter mediums. SOV has more cost effevtive AT units, yes, but the SU76 is quite unreliable especially against OKW P4s and the low damage make it very hard to actually finish it off.
I don't think OPs suggestions would fix SOV T3, but I also doubt that it would make the SU76 broken.

Accuracy went up and penetration went down:
SU-76

The SU-76 is receiving a number of slight changes to improve its role against light and medium vehicles with only a slight reduction against heavy tanks.

Accuracy from 0.05/0.035/0.025 to 0.05/0.04/0.0375
Penetration from 200/190/180 to 180/170/160
Rotation rate from 30 to 32

Keep in mind that it also get an accuracy as a vet bonus...

The SU-76 once has decent TTK vs mediums especially once vetted and a significant range advantage while being cheaper than stug and fighting the more expensive PzIV.
2 Jun 2020, 09:24 AM
#50
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

I think the two biggest problems with the SU-76 are:
1. It's not actually bad at all, it's just doesn't have a real role within the Soviet roster. Meta is simply getting a T-70 with Guards/Penal PTRS or a ZiS, and transition to T4. No one really needs a T3 light TD unless they are behind and they need a Hail Mary.
2. The SU-76, like the StuG, has a very problematic cost efficiency potential in teamgames. Before the barrage nerf, it was very common for players to just spam like 5-6 of them and annihilate anything they came across with pure DPM. It was very toxic to play against.


So any buffs would quite honestly be mostly artificial, trying to push the unit into play while it still doesn't have a role. And any combat buff risks moving it back to the cost efficiency that would allow players to spam them again in teamgames, which would be highly undesirable.

I'm not a fan of the Soviet hybrid units (ZiS, SU-76) anyway because it upsets the game economy (other factions must invest solely in AT when getting an ATG or a TD, while the Soviets get bonus AI with it) so I don't feel like pushing the hybrid role in the first place. If it were to receive any buffs, it would have to be compensated to keep away from the cost efficiency problem. Like a range decrease to 50.

Though I personally think the SU-76 is mostly fine as is. It's quite good at fighting mediums and lights, which makes it quite good at its sole role as a comeback unit, and it just doesn't see much other use because there are better alternatives. But nothing can be done about that.
2 Jun 2020, 09:26 AM
#51
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 09:05 AMVipper
The SU-76 once has decent TTK vs mediums especially once vetted and a significant range advantage while being cheaper than stug and fighting the more expensive PzIV.

SU-85 has better TTK both at vet0 or vet3 and that's with generous assumption that all of 76s shots pen.

SU-76 in vacuum is ok, but it has no place against meds when you can get 85 instead and not worry about heavies too. SU-76 is atm is a panic button and you really need to be ears deep in shit to get it.
2 Jun 2020, 09:39 AM
#52
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

If people are fearful of certain aspects, that's fine, but I believe if one thing should be added, it is at least a change to its barrage recharge and then rotation rate is the least dangerous with speed coming last in the order.

Vet 2 recharge can easily be removed, along with the 80 range, if it's too oppressive in numbers, but needing 80 seconds on a paid ability I believe hinders the unit far too much.
2 Jun 2020, 09:44 AM
#53
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273


but needing 80 seconds on a paid ability I believe hinders the unit far too much.


That is a much valid point; the change of timing & cost was a bit too much of a kneejerk response back then when the unit was nerfed. A change in rotation will also not result in the unit being used as infantry crusher, which is massively exaggerated, and numerous points are ignored which result in invalid arguments or points vacuum/excel sheets treatments (furthermore, the M10 which the changes are compared to, had crews, which helped to quickly repair on the field to aggressively pursue infantry crushing. USF also had other differences, which are ignored or falsified). Also I suspect that people in the thread are residing too much on the usual "why is this allies unit buffed, but not my axis unit" line of thought. Furthermore, the traditional quarrel between a couple of users is overly tiring.

I'd support all the changes for the next mod patch [Fall release?]
2 Jun 2020, 09:50 AM
#54
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

Well if people insist on those buffs, StugG should get atleast 60 range

:kappa:


If you make it as fragile and deal lower damage we have deal. Lol
2 Jun 2020, 10:00 AM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1

It seem you quoted the wrong post so here I will fix it for you:
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 04:57 AMVipper

...
Imo the unit currently performs cost efficiently and the problem has to do more that there is little reason to built since there are better units out there like the T-70/SU-85.



SU-85 has better TTK both at vet0 or vet3 and that's with generous assumption that all of 76s shots pen.

Glad to see that you agree with me

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 04:57 AMVipper

SU-76 in vacuum is ok, but it has no place against meds when you can get 85 instead and not worry about heavies too. SU-76 is atm is a panic button

That is simply a hyperbole

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 04:57 AMVipper

and you really need to be ears deep in shit to get it.

I have no ideae what your habits are but if this one is one of them, it would explain a lot.
2 Jun 2020, 11:17 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1

Another option would be to lower the accuracy of the SU-85 so that inferior vs mediums and adjust SU-76 as need vs mediums.
2 Jun 2020, 11:27 AM
#59
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 09:01 AMVipper

The thing is that barrage is already cheap, good and get betters with veterancy:
More shots than Zis
25% recharge time of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.
+25% damage.
+25% reload speed.
+25% rotation speed.
+11.1% range of the "Light Artillery Barrage" ability.

The thing is actually superior to mortar starting at 80 range and going up to almost 90 and with AOE that actually kill model at first shot.

Last thing one need is make the barrage spammable especially after the buff it received.


The barrage can be made less leathal to balance it out. As it stands no1 gets it even with the arty being stronger then a zis3.
The same can be done with the mobility vet buff,s if its vet 0 mobility gets buffed.
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