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SU-76 - A Slight Adjustment

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1 Jun 2020, 19:03 PM
#1
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1261 | Subs: 14



So recently I made a video on the subject after playing with them quite a bit on stream. It explains all the changes I think the unit needs.


Short version, I don't think the SU-76 is far off from what it needs, but I do think it needs 2-3 changes.

Changes As Follows

-Barrage recharge from 80 to 30
-Speed from 6.3 to 6.7-6.9
-Rotation rate from 32 to 36-38

These are in place to reinforce the SU-76s role as an assault gun and gives it a tad more survivability by being able to disengage, as it lacks special abilities to slow or block LOS as well as lacking passive above average sight.

There would likely need to be some further adjustments like vet gain, veterancy abilities, and changing tracking, but I would like to focus on the main things the unit needs. I know T-70 is meta and all, but allowing the SU-76 to be ready to barrage so as long as the player has munitions would be nice, rather than a barrage recharge that is almost on par with rocket artillery, along with a speed which means it can never run for mediums or Panthers.

1 Jun 2020, 19:05 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1



-Speed from 6.3 to 6.7-6.9
-Rotation rate from 32 to 36-38


Lets have another unit that crushes infatry like crazy.
1 Jun 2020, 19:15 PM
#3
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2475 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2020, 19:05 PMVipper

Lets have another unit that crushes infatry like crazy.

Why did you only quote the speed and rotation rate? Both of those impact it's performance against vehicles way more than against infantry

The barrage recharge is what would effect infantry. But I don't see how you could possibly think what he's proposing is extreme, especially given that he said there would need to be other adjustments
1 Jun 2020, 19:18 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1


Why did you only quote the speed and rotation rate? Both of those impact it's performance against vehicles way more than against infantry

The barrage recharge is what would effect infantry. But I don't see how you could possibly think what he's proposing is extreme, especially given that he said there would need to be other adjustments

Fast unit with rotation above 32 are extremely good at crushing infatry.

Crushing infatry should simply be removed from this unit.
1 Jun 2020, 19:20 PM
#5
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1091 | Subs: 1


Why did you only quote the speed and rotation rate? Both of those impact it's performance against vehicles way more than against infantry

The barrage recharge is what would effect infantry. But I don't see how you could possibly think what he's proposing is extreme, especially given that he said there would need to be other adjustments

Vipper meant literally crushing them by driving over them.
However since the SU76 gets snared instantly this would be a very risky maneuver.

In general I think the SU76 could use a little more utility/slight rework to make it compete better with the T70. I am not sure if OPs suggestions really help in that regard though.
1 Jun 2020, 19:26 PM
#6
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2475 | Subs: 1


Vipper meant literally crushing them by driving over them.
However since the SU76 gets snared instantly this would be a very risky maneuver.


Yup I know what vipper meant and your point is exactly why I don't think people would be using it to crush either way. When your engine can't even survive one snare, crushing is a bold move

Not to mention not having a turret makes it even bolder. If a tank shows up while your crushing you can't fight back
1 Jun 2020, 19:48 PM
#7
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 3653 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2020, 19:05 PMVipper

Lets have another unit that crushes infatry like crazy.


+1. From my understanding Vipper is correct here. rotation rates above 32 is what gave us the M10. One snare or not, crushing a squad with an AT vehicle imo is incredibly stupid and should be avoided.
1 Jun 2020, 19:59 PM
#8
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 34

I like the idea of giving the main gun 160 damage at vet 1 instead of a new ability.

The SU-76 already has a lot of utility, (especially if the Barrage cooldown gets reduced) but lacks firepower. This is basically turning the dynamic on its head and giving it the ability up front and the damage at Vet 1.

This is a unit that will be tricky to buff though. Barrage lets the SU-76 push away a lot of the normal TD counters. Lack of turning and mobility may be a necessary weakness if Barrage becomes usable at a faster rate.
1 Jun 2020, 20:45 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15447 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Jun 2020, 19:18 PMVipper

Fast unit with rotation above 32 are extremely good at crushing infatry.

Crushing infatry should simply be removed from this unit.

Because its impossible to remove infantry crush if its an issue.
This is why T-70 can still crush infantry.
Oh wait.
1 Jun 2020, 20:58 PM
#10
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

Firstly; nice video. It covers all the points well, and is just well made. Great work.

Changes As Follows

-Barrage recharge from 80 to 30
-Speed from 6.3 to 6.7-6.9
-Rotation rate from 32 to 36-38


Secondly; no to all. This will brick OST and turn the STUG-G, which is already pretty underwhelming, into an absolute joke. Let's compare the current stug to the proposed 'buffed' SU-76.

SU-76
280mp, 75f, 8 pop
400mp, 75/35 armor, 20 size
6.8 or 6.9 speed, 2.3/4.4 acc/deacc, 36 or 38 rotation
120dmg, 160 far pen, 4.9-5.4 reload, 60 range

STUG-G
280mp, 90f, 10 pop
560hp, 140/70 armor, 17 size
6 speed, 2.1 accel, 28 rotation
160dmg, 170 far pen, 4.5-5.5 reload, 50 range

So; for 15 less fuel and 2 less pop, you get a unit that would be untouchable by the more expensive STUG; it would accelerate much faster, has a much higher top speed, and turns faster, while also having 10 more range and a 100% chance to pen it at max range.

That would be 'fine', but it also pushes the speed above every other OST unit. P4 dives? The P4's top speed is 6.3 with 2.1 acceleration; it also wouldn't be able to actually catch it. Even the panther's 6.6 speed and 2.4 acceleration wouldn't be able to catch it. Meanwhile, the SU-76 would have 10 to 15 more range than either of those units.

Realistically, OST's only counter would be the doc-locked Puma (7.2 speed, 4.5 acell), but its main benefit is being able to flank. With the SU-76s buffed rotation speed, it would need to circle-strafe the Su-76 at a very close range, making it extremely vulnerable to snares (since its also insta-snared).

Now, you might say that this is OK, since it would still be very squishy. That would be fine, but you're also pushing it more into the "support artillery" role. At 80 range, the SU-76 out-ranges any and all AT OST has to offer, except the Elefant. But now its going to be barraging every 30 seconds (in teamgames, you'd have the res) - which would be incredibly powerful against the largely static OST units (MG42, Pak40, LMG Grens, etc.).

Additionally, it'll be doing those constant barrages while being immune to counter-barrages. In your video, you brought up that the Zis-3's cooldown is 30sec vs. 80 on the SU-76; the reason for this because the Zis-3 is vulnerable to counter arty. While it can fire more often, it can be quickly decrewed; a barraging SU-76 isn't at risk from mortars, LeFHs or even PWerfers.

So, essentially, you're suggesting making the SU-76 an early-game TD that's faster than every stock AT solution OST has, while also being incredibly cheap. Then rounding out its late-game squishy nature by giving it an incredible secondary role.
1 Jun 2020, 21:06 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1


Because its impossible to remove infantry crush if its an issue.
This is why T-70 can still crush infantry.
Oh wait.

Thank you for stating the obvious.

Now explain to op why crush human should be removed from the Su-76 as I posted in part you quoted.
1 Jun 2020, 21:07 PM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15447 | Subs: 7

Firstly; nice video. It covers all the points well, and is just well made. Great work.



Secondly; no to all. This will brick OST and turn the STUG-G, which is already pretty underwhelming, into an absolute joke. Let's compare the current stug to the proposed 'buffed' SU-76.

SU-76
280mp, 75f, 8 pop
400mp, 75/35 armor, 20 size
6.8 or 6.9 speed, 2.3/4.4 acc/deacc, 36 or 38 rotation
120dmg, 160 far pen, 4.9-5.4 reload, 60 range

STUG-G
280mp, 90f, 10 pop
560hp, 140/70 armor, 17 size
6 speed, 2.1 accel, 28 rotation
160dmg, 170 far pen, 4.5-5.5 reload, 50 range

So; for 15 less fuel and 2 less pop, you get a unit that would be untouchable by the more expensive STUG; it would accelerate much faster, has a much higher top speed, and turns faster, while also having 10 more range and a 100% chance to pen it at max range.

StuG is not supposed to go against SU-76.
Its med tank counter.

That would be 'fine', but it also pushes the speed above every other OST unit. P4 dives? The P4's top speed is 6.3 with 2.1 acceleration; it also wouldn't be able to actually catch it. Even the panther's 6.6 speed and 2.4 acceleration wouldn't be able to catch it.

T-70 speed is 6.9.
Its not invincible to meds thanks to it.

Now, you might say that this is OK, since it would still be very squishy. That would be fine, but you're also pushing it more into the "support artillery" role. At 80 range, the SU-76 out-ranges any and all AT OST has to offer, except the Elefant. But now its going to be barraging every 30 seconds (in teamgames, you'd have the res) - which would be incredibly powerful against the largely static OST units (MG42, Pak40, LMG Grens, etc.).

Barrage cost hefty amount of muni.
Soviets are overbloated with abilities that cost hefty amount of muni.
If you'll see a lot of this glorified mortar barrage, you will not encounter mines, offmaps or sprinting cons throwing stuff.

Additionally, it'll be doing those constant barrages while being immune to counter-barrages. In your video, you brought up that the Zis-3's cooldown is 30sec vs. 80 on the SU-76; the reason for this because the Zis-3 is vulnerable to counter arty. While it can fire more often, it can be quickly decrewed. However, a barraging SU-76 isn't at risk from mortars, LeFHs or even PWerfers.

Could you guess why ZiS-3 doesn't do constant barrages despite 30 sec cd?
It might have something to do with previous point. In case you haven't used SU-76 for last 2 years, its barrage costs quite a bit of muni now, this is specifically why that short SU-76 spam meta died.

So, essentially, you're suggesting making the SU-76 an early-game TD that's faster than every stock AT solution OST has, while also being incredibly cheap. Then rounding out its late-game squishy nature by giving it an incredible secondary role.

Would you prefer to see T-70 in every singular soviet game until the death of multiplayer?
1 Jun 2020, 21:08 PM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

1 Jun 2020, 21:18 PM
#14
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

StuG is not supposed to go against SU-76.
Its med tank counter.

Then what's the SU-76 supposed to be? Because it certainly wouldn't be a light-TD with those buffs.

T-70 speed is 6.9.
Its not invincible to meds thanks to it.

The T-70 has 40 range - it needs to get in range of STUGs and even P4s to do anything. The SU-76 has 10 to 20 more range than either of those tanks.

Barrage cost hefty amount of muni.
Soviets are overbloated with abilities that cost hefty amount of muni.
If you'll see a lot of this glorified mortar barrage, you will not encounter mines, offmaps or sprinting cons throwing stuff.

You need to consider all game modes. While this is true in 1v1 and 2v2, consider muni-cache spammed 4v4s.

Could you guess why ZiS-3 doesn't do constant barrages despite 30 sec cd?
It might have something to do with previous point. In case you haven't used SU-76 for last 2 years, its barrage costs quite a bit of muni now, this is specifically why that short SU-76 spam meta died.

Again; team games. Zis-3 barrage spamming can actually be quite effective in larger games, especially if its well coordinated.

Would you prefer to see T-70 in every singular soviet game until the death of multiplayer?


No, but making the SU-76 an OST hard-counter isn't the solution.
1 Jun 2020, 21:24 PM
#15
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 536

I think vet3 increase to 160 damage or reduce barrage CD and make barrage free
1 Jun 2020, 21:28 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15447 | Subs: 7


Then what's the SU-76 supposed to be? Because it certainly wouldn't be a light-TD with those buffs.

The counter to med tanks with a barrage.


The T-70 has 40 range - it needs to get in range of STUGs and even P4s to do anything. The SU-76 has 10 to 20 more range than either of those tanks.

I'm sure you'll see all these infantry crushing SU-76 on the front lines, even closer to the action then T-70, vipper said so, so it must be true, he can't be wrong and its a fact. :snfPeter:

You need to consider all game modes. While this is true in 1v1 and 2v2, consider muni-cache spammed 4v4s.

Everything is OP in 4v4, when massed, that is not an argument.
Plus, you'd have to destroy all the fuel caches first to be able to build muni ones.

Again; team games. Zis-3 barrage spamming can actually be quite effective in larger games, especially if its well coordinated.

So why its not being done?
Everything looks good on paper.

No, but making the SU-76 an OST hard-counter isn't the solution.

It also isn't going to be a problem, unless you never go beyond P4.
It takes 8 shots to kill panther, 7 when vetted, 14-15 taking armor into account.

If you need to shoot at something 16 times and its not infantry squad vs other infantry squad, you don't exactly look at "hard" counter.
1 Jun 2020, 21:36 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

...
I'm sure you'll see all these infantry crushing SU-76 on the front lines, even closer to the action then T-70, vipper said so, so it must be true, he can't be wrong and its a fact. :snfPeter:

For the 100 time stop laying about what I have posted.

I never said that: "see all these infantry crushing SU-76 on the front lines" this your pure fabrication. What I have said is that SU-76 should not have crush enabled especially if it getting higher mobility.
1 Jun 2020, 21:51 PM
#18
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

The counter to med tanks with a barrage.

So then why would it be countering medium TDs?

I'm sure you'll see all these infantry crushing SU-76 on the front lines, even closer to the action then T-70, vipper said so, so it must be true, he can't be wrong and its a fact. :snfPeter:

What? This doesn't even address what I said. I'd call it a straw-man, but it's not even against my own argument. I never mentioned anything about the SU-76 crushing infantry, and explicitly stated it would be fighting at max range - so how is this relevant?

Everything is OP in 4v4, when massed, that is not an argument.
Plus, you'd have to destroy all the fuel caches first to be able to build muni ones.

Well, unfortunately the game still needs to be balanced in those modes.


So why its not being done?
Everything looks good on paper.

Why is what not being done? Zis barrage spamming has/is being done effectively in higher-level team games. However, its counterable since the Zis-3 is slow and can be easily counter-barraged and/or decrewed. The SU-76 would be far too mobile and immune to counter-barrage if it took that role.


It also isn't going to be a problem, unless you never go beyond P4.
It takes 8 shots to kill panther, 7 when vetted, 14-15 taking armor into account.

If you need to shoot at something 16 times and its not infantry squad vs other infantry squad, you don't exactly look at "hard" counter.


Sure, except the Su76 shows up before Stugs and P4s, let alone panthers. And because they're so cheap, they'd likely be spammed (3-4 of them). You've also completely ignored the problem of having a highly mobile, "immune to artillery", barraging unit facing against OST, who relies heavily on static units.
1 Jun 2020, 21:57 PM
#19
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7194 | Subs: 1

1- Remove infantry crushing.

2- Increase rotation OR speed. Not both. Ideally rotation.

3- Reducing barrage cd would be fine. Would put it to 40 so it doesn't go further down than 30 with vet.
1 Jun 2020, 22:28 PM
#20
avatar of Baba

Posts: 504

Rotation, thing is pretty fast already, isnt it
its kinda funny, i either dont get to see the 76 or my opponent is going for nothing but 76s..
but its the same with the stug really, i think they are both in the same spot. a better allround alternative
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