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russian armor

2v2s just feel like an upward battle for axis

22 Apr 2020, 08:52 AM
#21
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 897

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 23:06 PMKyle

=> This can be easily fixed by letting Grenadier having an option of upgrade to 5 man squad non doctrine that also DISABLED the ability to upgrade with LMG42 and DISABLED ALL weapon slots

=> By having 5 man Grenadier squad, I can now have a frontline infantry that take the damage while other 4 man Grenadier with LMG42 can stay behind and shoot

=> Having 5 man Grenadier let me pick up dropped crew weapons ( MG, AT, Mortar, Pack howziter ). Right now with my 4 grenadier? Losing 1 model? Good luck with that.



+1

And tone down MG42 to Maxim stats (and make it 5 men too)
+ give Soviets non Doc conscrtipts 2x DP-28 upgrade and make T34-85 non doc.


OST is build on support weapons. 5-men grens without nerfing all another stuf will break game.
22 Apr 2020, 09:45 AM
#22
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 08:52 AMAradan


+1

And tone down MG42 to Maxim stats (and make it 5 men too)
+ give Soviets non Doc conscrtipts 2x DP-28 upgrade and make T34-85 non doc.


OST is build on support weapons. 5-men grens without nerfing all another stuf will break game.

:rofl:

"OST is build..." that was Years ago dude! now USF has better Support play.

No fuckin Buffs to SU.

Just go through the threads here... is there anyone that says "Oh yes Ost is so Op"

And YES please make T34 85 stock maybe we will see some other doctrins beside "cancer Motor":S
22 Apr 2020, 11:02 AM
#23
avatar of IJustDontCare

Posts: 52

Last time I remember Ostheer being OP was when elefant was still 100 range.

Kind of wish we could of balanced the game in other ways to keep ranges like that on ISU and elefant and jag tiger as well as not limit heavies to 1, those days were fun.
22 Apr 2020, 11:11 AM
#24
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 250

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 06:41 AMEsxile


You should definitively play Allied side to see new strategies (or watch top50 replays if there are any). I top rank 40/50 in 2vs2 random with USF and the teams I met don't play like that. I barely see elefants to be honest and the peak for Ostheer is definitively around the T2 with mastering the use of the 251 to reinforce units on the field.
Once you master the use of the 251, 4men squad grenadiers are nothing of a problem and you can understand how 5men squad gren or pio would become one here (without a specific dotrine).

Imo, Ostheer in 2vs2 is about building a solid T2 with dual pak, sniper, 251 to reinforce on the field, good micro on your HMG42 and the doctrine you like the most to complete that.


I wish I can play Allies, my other teammate is anal axis only and doesn't wanna try Allies + I don't play with random teammate. And I'm not sure because I did fight against top 10 => top 100, mostly Allies I just meet combo like I said ( explains why I'm going Ostwind to counter USF Airborne skill plane ).

And not just my team, most replay of 2vs2 on tighrope channel all have Elefant :\, it's 2vs2 meta for Axis at least.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BiPeMWdJxc

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SckFtbBxNR0

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hmb9N8dFW4

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Mq2xa_i3s

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1fx5Q8rvu4


I agree with your 251 point ( my replay casting by tightrope always see me playing with 251 ), but the problem is still present that my Grenadier is still 4 man squad, still hard to steal crew weapons, easier to get wiped because of lower models count ( and I need to get vet 3 in order for the -20% damaged )

Going dual pak in later game will be meet with Pack Howziter from USF, M8 Scout or Katchusa which all are good AoE anti-crew weapons so I'm not sure I wanna go 2 of them, but your point about Sniper + 251 is on point like me.


P/S: Like I said, 5 man Gren with penalty of 5x kar98k only doesn't increase in firepower, only in survival - crew weapon pickup only and Soviet can do the same with their M5 Halftrack if they want to



Or you don't care to rank up at some point and you play offmeta knowing you might lose. It all depends on what objectives you have. If you know and understand that you are handicapping yourself you won't be salty if you lose.


Haha yeah no thank you :( , totally understand your point but right now I rather stick with my Elefant + OKW combo in 2vs2 :P, it's boring play but it's working!

I mean right now the patch I feel is almost perfect beside my personal ranting of 5 man grenadier non doctrine squad + The infantry sections feeling OP atm.

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 08:52 AMAradan


+1

And tone down MG42 to Maxim stats (and make it 5 men too)
+ give Soviets non Doc conscrtipts 2x DP-28 upgrade and make T34-85 non doc.


OST is build on support weapons. 5-men grens without nerfing all another stuf will break game.


Yeah I don't mind tone down the MG42, it's the best MG in the game I think, and the point about non doc conscript DP28 is cool but I think 1 is enough, T34-85 might be a bit much consider SU already got SU85 which is already the best TD Allies ever have ( based on the increase sight range ability )

About the OST build on support weapons idk man, right now the Allies got better support weapons compare to Ostheer ( USF Pack Howziter, SU AT Gun that can shoot barrage, SU Mortar which can fire flare ), idk I feel like the only good support Ostheer have is the MG42.
22 Apr 2020, 11:33 AM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2835 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 11:11 AMKyle


P/S: Like I said, 5 man Gren with penalty of 5x kar98k only doesn't increase in firepower, only in survival - crew weapon pickup only and Soviet can do the same with their M5 Halftrack if they want to



5 men squad would require a lot of side nerfs other than just lmg42 or weapon slot. There is a reason why it is locked behind a doctrine with not big units and peaks weapons.
Soviet HT comes super late in comparison and is going to delay you peak time with the T70. 251 isn't really a choice between it and the 222, you can get both without delay and obviously it is much more relevant with Ostheer static play and slow territory grind than mobile Sov running all the ways at the same time to flank you.

Then of course T2 stale have its downside with arty and rocket arty. They should always be a way to counter any strategy so no reason to not. Dual pak isn't for the late game but to deny light vehicle play and medium rush. Late game you have your Panthers, brumbar, pwerfer, tiger if picked or elefant if you like it.

Personally at the moment I'm more scared of dual Ostheer teams than dual OKW teams, I'll say that OKW I know what I'm going to face anyway /blob of Pfuss. Ostheer is much more tricky to face.

22 Apr 2020, 12:03 PM
#26
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 57

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2020, 23:06 PMKyle
I'm a main Ostheer 2vs2 players that have numerous fighting against top 10 like Icauna / Ikab and I have the same opinion like you guys.

--------------------------------------

+) I feel like my Grenadier is weaker compare to other mainline because they only have 4 mans: Losing 1 model meaning lost 25% firepower, losing 3 models meaning I have to retreat if I got no reinforced halftrack near me.

=> This can be easily fixed by letting Grenadier having an option of upgrade to 5 man squad non doctrine that also DISABLED the ability to upgrade with LMG42 and DISABLED ALL weapon slots

=> By having 5 man Grenadier squad, I can now have a frontline infantry that take the damage while other 4 man Grenadier with LMG42 can stay behind and shoot

=> Having 5 man Grenadier let me pick up dropped crew weapons ( MG, AT, Mortar, Pack howziter ). Right now with my 4 grenadier? Losing 1 model? Good luck with that.

--------------------------------------

" But Kyle, there is already a doctrine with 5 man grenadier! You can even get a free G43 and free healing from it too "

- Yes, but we are talking about 2vs2 where almost every game will turn be swarm with M36 Jackson / Firefly / SU85 / Comet and heavy tanks such as IS2 - KV2 - ISU ( mostly ISU with it HE round wiping Axis infantry ). Not picking an Elefant doctrine to counter Allies TD and heavy tanks? Good luck with your Panther mate.

" But Kyle, 5 man Grenadier with LMG42 - 2x G43 is BROKEN "


- No shit, that's why I suggest that let me have 5 man grenadier non-doctrine but PUNISH me by NOT ABLE to upgrade with LMG42 and NOT ABLE to pick up dropped weapon? Make it 5 man grenadier with pure 5x kar98k rifle. What I need from this squad is the ability to live longer, steal crew weapons, not looking for pure firepower from them

--------------------------------------

With more than 1200 games in 2vs2, 5x 2vs2 replays against top tier players casting by tightrope, my conclusion that all I ever want from this Ostheer faction is to have 5 man grenadier squad NON - doctrine so I can use them as meat shield, I can use them to steal weapon easier. That's my personal opinion about Ostheers in 2vs2, I would love to listen to your critics.

P/S: If OKW faction got sniper, I would switch to 2x OKW in 2vs2 haha


Would it be easier if Ostheer had a forward retreat? So losing models wasn't such a punishment.

Only russian and Ost don't have one, it should be added to the ost command bunker (with a price increase), but I think it kinda suits the RU not to have one especially with conscript merge

And it doesn't encourage blobbing, nothing it more fun than dropping arty on a forward retreat right after I force off a blob.
22 Apr 2020, 12:06 PM
#27
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 121

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 06:41 AMEsxile


Imo, Ostheer in 2vs2 is about building a solid T2 with dual pak, sniper, 251 to reinforce on the field, good micro on your HMG42 and the doctrine you like the most to complete that.


The implied argument you make here is "be strategic micro god and you can outplay your opponent" It is commonly known in the community, that ostheer playstyle in competitive scene is probably the most APM intensive faction to play. Managing all the distinguishable tools like sniper, 251 early early HMG backed up by glass cannon mainline infantry is required to stay competitive with the opponents "just run to them bro" and "haha double bar go brrr" strategies feels unfair. We should not balance the factions around one having to have double the APM to stay competitive with another one. Shortly put the fix to this in the late game would be non doctrinal 5 men squads for ostheer.
22 Apr 2020, 12:24 PM
#28
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1



The implied argument you make here is "be strategic micro god and you can outplay your opponent" It is commonly known in the community, that ostheer playstyle in competitive scene is probably the most APM intensive faction to play. Managing all the distinguishable tools like sniper, 251 early early HMG backed up by glass cannon mainline infantry is required to stay competitive with the opponents "just run to them bro" and "haha double bar go brrr" strategies feels unfair. We should not balance the factions around one having to have double the APM to stay competitive with another one. Shortly put the fix to this in the late game would be non doctrinal 5 men squads for ostheer.


Are you implying that top level USF is just hurr durr BAR a-move?
22 Apr 2020, 12:25 PM
#29
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2835 | Subs: 1



The implied argument you make here is "be strategic micro god and you can outplay your opponent" It is commonly known in the community, that ostheer playstyle in competitive scene is probably the most APM intensive faction to play. Managing all the distinguishable tools like sniper, 251 early early HMG backed up by glass cannon mainline infantry is required to stay competitive with the opponents "just run to them bro" and "haha double bar go brrr" strategies feels unfair. We should not balance the factions around one having to have double the APM to stay competitive with another one. Shortly put the fix to this in the late game would be non doctrinal 5 men squads for ostheer.


Hu? no. Not in 2vs2 where 3/4 of map pool are lane maps. And 1vs1, looking how Ostheer felt easy early game during the tournament I'm not even sure it is true either.
22 Apr 2020, 13:49 PM
#30
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1151

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 06:41 AMEsxile

Imo, Ostheer in 2vs2 is about building a solid T2 with dual pak, sniper, 251 to reinforce on the field, good micro on your HMG42 and the doctrine you like the most to complete that.
While that is true, the problem is that this strategy is single handedly countered by a Katjuscha or Calliope, incindiary offmap, clusterbomb,deleting the majority off your army that has to be on one spot to be efficient.

Problem is that once arty and 60 range tds hit the field, you are on the backfoot as Ost. Your tanks don't cut it vs superior range and without clumsy support units sitting on a spot you will lose.
22 Apr 2020, 14:27 PM
#31
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4087 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 12:03 PMTomDRV


Would it be easier if Ostheer had a forward retreat? So losing models wasn't such a punishment.

Only russian and Ost don't have one, it should be added to the ost command bunker (with a price increase), but I think it kinda suits the RU not to have one especially with conscript merge

And it doesn't encourage blobbing, nothing it more fun than dropping arty on a forward retreat right after I force off a blob.

Forward retreats are lame. Efa is superior because it was designed around your choices mattering. If you picked a weapon upgrade it didn't buff every single combat Stat and it's dog and more to the point retreating meant giving up ground. It's a core part of the game that seems to have been forgotten. Retreat isn't a get out of jail free card its supposed to be trading ground to save your unit. Certainly not "well this is a minor inconvenience so I'll retreat 6 feet so I can try again.
OST has no need for a forward retreat. They have both bunkers and a very improved halftrack for reinforcement and more ways to heal than you can shake a stick at. Please leave some semblance of thought required yea?
22 Apr 2020, 14:59 PM
#32
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2119 | Subs: 1

I don't know where to start but the game feels so damn hard in 2v2s for axis. The amount of blobbing from allies and penalty of losing anything early on as axis just makes it so hard to come back from I don't know just feels like a complete upward battle every game now.


I don't feel like Allies are much better in any game mode. The game is somewhat balanced at the moment.

A bigger issue is the combination of certain doctrinal units (ISU and Elefant) on maps that don't allow any flanking (Minsk, Kharkov, Rails and Metall, Poltawa etc.)

I also think unbalanced maps are a bigger issue than factional balance. North Minsk, Kharkov, Moscow all suck and give you a huge disadvantage.


22 Apr 2020, 16:18 PM
#33
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7194 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 11:11 AMKyle
Haha yeah no thank you :( , totally understand your point but right now I rather stick with my Elefant + OKW combo in 2vs2 :P, it's boring play but it's working!

I mean right now the patch I feel is almost perfect beside my personal ranting of 5 man grenadier non doctrine squad + The infantry sections feeling OP atm.


Hey, you were the one who said it was boring to play 2v2 meta :P

Optimizing your victory chances comes at a cost.

I also think unbalanced maps are a bigger issue than factional balance. North Minsk, Kharkov, Moscow all suck and give you a huge disadvantage.


This shows how much potential the game has when we can never get to the point where we are discussing map balance based on spawn or even factions and we are just stuck with allies vs axis
22 Apr 2020, 16:24 PM
#34
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 250

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 13:49 PMButcher
While that is true, the problem is that this strategy is single handedly countered by a Katjuscha or Calliope, incindiary offmap, clusterbomb,deleting the majority off your army that has to be on one spot to be efficient.

Problem is that once arty and 60 range tds hit the field, you are on the backfoot as Ost. Your tanks don't cut it vs superior range and without clumsy support units sitting on a spot you will lose.


This guy gets it! A single good rocket unit just like Katjuscha or Calliope will deal heavy damage or manpower drain against Ostheer units which already low model, not to mention top 100 2vs2 players know where to aim their rocket too.

Btw, Does anyone feel like Panzerwerfer is a joke? The scatter are too high and it required you to Vet 2 in order to lower the scatter, unit like Katchusa can stay out in max range and fire 3 times into a single target, Panzerwerfer just like scatter everywhere.

I don't even bother making them no more, I just ask my 2vs2 OKW teammate to make Stuka.


Hey, you were the one who said it was boring to play 2v2 meta :P

Optimizing your victory chances comes at a cost.



:P cheers mate, whenever I play against Allies off metal I feel like a dreammmm: ez win is 1 thing but it's somehow fresh because enemy playstyle change, meaning I also change my playstyle a bit
22 Apr 2020, 16:27 PM
#35
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2119 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 16:24 PMKyle


This guy gets it! A single good rocket unit just like Katjuscha or Calliope will deal heavy damage or manpower drain against Ostheer units which already low model, not to mention top 100 2vs2 players know where to aim their rocket too.

Btw, Does anyone feel like Panzerwerfer is a joke? The scatter are too high and it required you to Vet 2 in order to lower the scatter, unit like Katchusa can stay out in max range and fire 3 times into a single target, Panzerwerfer just like scatter everywhere.

I don't even bother making them no more, I just ask my 2vs2 OKW teammate to make Stuka.


:P cheers mate, whenever I play against Allies off metal I feel like a dreammmm: ez win is 1 thing but it's somehow fresh because enemy playstyle change, meaning I also change my playstyle a bit


What about actually playing Allies before spending all this effort into explaining how UP Axis is? You explained us you never play Allies because your teammate doesn't want to. It's normal to think "red units OP" so the only way to get a better picture is to play both sides.

Rocket artillery is good both ways. Using Stuka or Panzerwerfer against Allied support weapon spam or blobs is just as good.

Panzerwerfer is a bit harder to use but I have suffered a lot from well-microed Panzerwerfers and can promise you they are not a joke. I would agree for the average player Katjusha and Stuka are better because they don't require as much effort. Calliope is the best rocket artillery but it's also doctrinal and expensive, so it should be the best.

Playing against Allied off-meta builds is also far from an easy win. I don't know how you came to this conclusion?

As I said it's more of a map/match-up issue than balance itself. If you play OKW vs UKF on Crossing in the Woods you will suffer way more than playing the same match-up on Elst or Winnekendonk. You could say OKW is UP against UKF on Crossing but OP on Elst but overall it's probably pretty balanced. Same could be said about USF/Soviets vs Wehrmacht, just in this case Ostheer being the faction that benefits from playing on Crossing.
22 Apr 2020, 16:28 PM
#36
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 311 | Subs: 1

Nah, it's reasonably well balanced atm.

The only difference is that Axis cheese is currently easier to couner than Allied cheese.
22 Apr 2020, 16:30 PM
#37
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 174

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2020, 16:24 PMKyle


This guy gets it! A single good rocket unit just like Katjuscha or Calliope will deal heavy damage or manpower drain against Ostheer units which already low model, not to mention top 100 2vs2 players know where to aim their rocket too.

Btw, Does anyone feel like Panzerwerfer is a joke? The scatter are too high and it required you to Vet 2 in order to lower the scatter, unit like Katchusa can stay out in max range and fire 3 times into a single target, Panzerwerfer just like scatter everywhere.

I don't even bother making them no more, I just ask my 2vs2 OKW teammate to make Stuka.


:P cheers mate, whenever I play against Allies off metal I feel like a dreammmm: ez win is 1 thing but it's somehow fresh because enemy playstyle change, meaning I also change my playstyle a bit


I don't play 2vs2 that much, but at least in 3vs3/4vs4 the lack of self-propelled arty and reliable Rocket-launcher makes the late game quite painfull as Ostheer for the reason you said, but it is also a map design problem I think.
22 Apr 2020, 16:39 PM
#38
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1531



I don't feel like Allies are much better in any game mode. The game is somewhat balanced at the moment.

A bigger issue is the combination of certain doctrinal units (ISU and Elefant) on maps that don't allow any flanking (Minsk, Kharkov, Rails and Metall, Poltawa etc.)

I also think unbalanced maps are a bigger issue than factional balance. North Minsk, Kharkov, Moscow all suck and give you a huge disadvantage.




Right now, I feel like the biggest difference between Axis and Allies is that when I play Axis, I'm usually picking a JT to counter an ISU, as opposed to picking an ISU to counter a JT or Ele when I play Allies. At least the nerf to the Pershing worked as intended. It didn't seem that bad the last time I played against it.

If I could veto just the north spawn on Minsk, Kharkov, and Moscow, I would in a heartbeat. They're as bad as the right side of Port of Hamburg.
22 Apr 2020, 16:45 PM
#39
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2119 | Subs: 1



Right now, I feel like the biggest difference between Axis and Allies is that when I play Axis, I'm usually picking a JT to counter an ISU, as opposed to picking an ISU to counter a JT or Ele when I play Allies. At least the nerf to the Pershing worked as intended. It didn't seem that bad the last time I played against it.

If I could veto just the north spawn on Minsk, Kharkov, and Moscow, I would in a heartbeat. They're as bad as the right side of Port of Hamburg.


IMO the best thing for 2v2 would be nerfs to both ISU doctrines and removing spotting scopes from Jäger Armour. That would instantly improve 2v2 a lot by making these doctrines less of a braindead auto pick on all the lane maps.

It's very strange why this was not done back when the doctrines got reworked.

Another problem is the ISU vs Ele/JT match-up doesn't work because both ISU doctrines have IL2 bombs + T34 non-doctrinal ram. One of the ISU doctrines even has mark target which means you can just frontally kill Ele and JT with vet 2 Su 85 and ISU on AT shells or a combination of SU 85/Jackson/Firefly or whatever else you might have.

Jäger Armour isn't much better either because it counters snipers, artillery and tanks all in one doctrine.
22 Apr 2020, 16:50 PM
#40
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1



I don't play 2vs2 that much, but at least in 3vs3/4vs4 the lack of self-propelled arty and reliable Rocket-launcher makes the late game quite painfull as Ostheer for the reason you said, but it is also a map design problem I think.


Immagine what USF feels like. They don't even have non docrinal rocket arty. USF in teamgames has to choose between having any lategame arty and having a tank with more than 640HP that doesn't get 2-shotted by a duo of raketten that are always in your face bacause they have a get out of jail for free Retreat ability.

Every faction has weaknesses. Every faction has strenghts. As Ostheer you don't have the best arty, but you don't have the worst either as stock, and you can get it in combination with heavy tanks, and you always have access to T4 premium tanks regardless of doctrines.
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