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russian armor

Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

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5 Apr 2020, 23:52 PM
#41
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784



Sorry, but this is a false equivalency, at best. You're comparing the use of an ability (ram) to a static unit (mine). Let's look at the 'counter-play' order.

Mine:
#1. Place mine
#2. Opponent could detect/destroy mine
#3. Mine detonates or is disabled

Ram:
#1. Click Ram
#2. Ram can't be stopped once clicked
#3. Ram hits


Again, every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design.


Assuming that the T-34 is always in range is exactly the same as assuming the mine is already in place, and both require counterplay (screening).

Both are also vulnerable to zoning out the necessary support units.

Mine:
1. Mine is laid down in position.
2. Mine can be either spotted in being laid, or detected by likely singular sweeper-equipped engineer squad on the enemy team.
3. If enemy player fails to detect mine, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Ostheer player loses munitions for nothing.

Ram:
1. Produce and position T-34/76
2. T-34/76 can be zoned out or destroyed by screening units (and not singular upgraded engineer squads)
3. If enemy player has failed to do this, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Soviet player loses T-34 for nothing.

I'm really not quite sure how one can say one thing is balanced and not the other, particularly if, as I have suggested, the ram ability is moved to vet 1.
5 Apr 2020, 23:55 PM
#42
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

Assuming that the T-34 is always in range is exactly the same as assuming the mine is already in place, and both require counterplay (screening).

Both are also vulnerable to zoning out the necessary support units.

Mine:
1. Mine is laid down in position.
2. Mine can be either spotted in being laid, or detected by likely singular sweeper-equipped engineer squad on the enemy team.
3. If enemy player fails to detect mine, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Ostheer player loses munitions for nothing.

Ram:
1. Produce and position T-34/76
2. T-34/76 can be zoned out or destroyed by screening units (and not singular upgraded engineer squads)
3. If enemy player has failed to do this, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Soviet player loses T-34 for nothing.

I'm really not quite sure how one can say one thing is balanced and not the other, particularly if, as I have suggested, the ram ability is moved to vet 1.


We're discussing the ram ability, not the T34 itself; that's the important distinction.

Using your own list, it's
#1 Produce T34
#2 Attempt to counter T34
#3 Click ram
#4 Ram can't be countered
#5 Ram hits

You've added an extra step to the begging, but haven't addressed the counter-play of the ability. It needs to be Ability -> Counter-Play -> Effect. Adding more steps doesn't change that.

As for mines, step #2 (detecting/countering) is there regardless of discovery or not - but it's still there.
5 Apr 2020, 23:56 PM
#43
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Ram:
#1. Click Ram
#2. Ram can't be stopped once clicked
#3. Ram hits



While hard, you can block or out run the ram.
5 Apr 2020, 23:57 PM
#44
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784



We're discussing the ram ability, not the T34 itself; that's the important distinction.

Using your own list, it's
#1 Produce T34
#2 Attempt to counter T34
#3 Click ram
#4 Ram can't be countered
#5 Ram hits

You've added an extra step to the begging, but haven't addressed the counter-play of the ability. It needs to be Ability -> Counter-Play -> Effect. Adding more steps doesn't change that.


The ram ability is no less bound by effective range than the Teller mine is. It simply isn't correct to start your argument at the point of clicking "Ram" because the T-34 has to get there in the first place. Ignoring those steps does not make them go away - if the counterplay is lost on you it is because you have ignored the steps that are necessarily part of the play itself.
6 Apr 2020, 00:07 AM
#45
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

While hard, you can block or out run the ram.


Unfortunately, it's not consistent. It's also extremely unlikely with very slow 'ultra-heavy' vehicles, such as the JT.

The ram ability is no less bound by effective range than the Teller mine is. It simply isn't correct to start your argument at the point of clicking "Ram" because the T-34 has to get there in the first place. Ignoring those steps does not make them go away - if the counterplay is lost on you it is because you have ignored the steps that are necessarily part of the play itself.


Then you have a different definition of counter-play. For me, and from what I've seen, most game designers, it's Ability -> Counter-play -> Event. Abilities follow that pattern consistently in CoH2 as well.

It also begs the question of where the 'chain' of events can be allowed to start, regarding counter-play. Can it be said to start at the creation of the unit, or even further back, as the player needs to gain those resources?
6 Apr 2020, 01:16 AM
#46
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 22:09 PMVipper

A T-34 will ram even with engine damage.

It can not start ram "run" with engine damage but it will ram if the engine damage happens during the run.

I guess that's technically true, but again, if the t34 gets into ramming range uncontested and unmolested someone fucked up. If your super heavy tank had nothing between it and the enemy, yes you deserve to hurt. I like the ram combo because it means having a super heavy unsupported will cost you. People need to support their investments and not expect them to win the game by themselves. The tiger ace of old isn't coming back

It's a high risk, higher reward maneuver and I have seen it fail (by encountering a good army composition) more than I have seen it succeed. And yes, even pros can fuck up and get caught out. That's part of the game.
6 Apr 2020, 01:18 AM
#47
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Unfortunately, it's not consistent. It's also extremely unlikely with very slow 'ultra-heavy' vehicles, such as the JT.



Luckily it has 70 range and 280 damage to help mitigate that. If you spot for it the enemy shouldn't be able to get anywhere near the literally double the distance the tank can see for itself unscathed. It may not be able to out run it but it certainly, with a modicum of support, kill it before it gets there.
6 Apr 2020, 02:48 AM
#48
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

Your only options to counter a ram is to either one shot it using 4 tanks/anti tank guns, or to hit it and snare it before it gets into range for a ram.

The first option requires so much more investment than a 90fu 360mp T34 that it is an unviable counter, and option two requires you to screen your tanks with a second tank(which is then vulnerable to the ram itself) or an anti tank gun so far foreward that it is out of position and will be easily killed.

I think that getting a snare on a ramming t34 should cancel the ram, which should solve the problem.
6 Apr 2020, 03:58 AM
#49
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

A while ago there was a similar thread, where, I forgot who, pointed out that somehow all the high level players are unable to avoid ram, but somehow the players outside of that level claim it's easy to avoid.

I think Stormjäger's option is probably the best one. It preserves the ability, but actually adds some layer of strategy to it.


I guess that's technically true, but again, if the t34 gets into ramming range uncontested and unmolested someone fucked up. If your super heavy tank had nothing between it and the enemy, yes you deserve to hurt. I like the ram combo because it means having a super heavy unsupported will cost you. People need to support their investments and not expect them to win the game by themselves. The tiger ace of old isn't coming back

It's a high risk, higher reward maneuver and I have seen it fail (by encountering a good army composition) more than I have seen it succeed. And yes, even pros can fuck up and get caught out. That's part of the game.


Complete nonsense. In 1v1/2v2 you can manage, with difficulty to screen your heavy against a single T34. But as game design has it, the unit isn't terrible expensive. And stopping two T34s from ramming is nigh high impossible, especially with the way most of the maps in 2v2 are.
6 Apr 2020, 04:01 AM
#50
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500


I guess that's technically true, but again, if the t34 gets into ramming range uncontested and unmolested someone fucked up. If your super heavy tank had nothing between it and the enemy, yes you deserve to hurt. I like the ram combo because it means having a super heavy unsupported will cost you.



Support or not doesn't make difference in the case of ram, as it ignores engine damage and also gives out engine damage once the ram actually runs out. I also like how the only heavy tanks able to go in unsupported have to be the allied ones. Very convenient
6 Apr 2020, 04:44 AM
#51
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

A while ago there was a similar thread, where, I forgot who, pointed out that somehow all the high level players are unable to avoid ram, but somehow the players outside of that level claim it's easy to avoid.

I think Stormjäger's option is probably the best one. It preserves the ability, but actually adds some layer of strategy to it.



Complete nonsense. In 1v1/2v2 you can manage, with difficulty to screen your heavy against a single T34. But as game design has it, the unit isn't terrible expensive. And stopping two T34s from ramming is nigh high impossible, especially with the way most of the maps in 2v2 are.



Actually it's once again the Allies-only bias at play rather than skill level. Whether you're top 10 or 1000th, you'll never recognise the difficulty of the other side/factions if you only play Allies.

Heck, I haven't even played team games for 2 years and I can easily understand the issue being described because I have both used the T34 ram ability as well as experienced it.

The man is ranked 4th in Soviet 2v2 and all the Allies-only players are mocking him non-stop with L2P jibes.

6 Apr 2020, 07:07 AM
#52
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Complete nonsense. In 1v1/2v2 you can manage, with difficulty to screen your heavy against a single T34. But as game design has it, the unit isn't terrible expensive. And stopping two T34s from ramming is nigh high impossible, especially with the way most of the maps in 2v2 are.

If someone is willing to sacrifice two medium tanks and offmap strike, I literally can't think of a situation where you deserve to lose your heavy more.
6 Apr 2020, 07:40 AM
#53
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 19:23 PMikab
The T34 + Ram combo is far too effective against heavy tanks in 2v2, in particular the OKW heavy tanks like the King Tiger and the Jagdtiger that, once rammed, can't escape the subsequent indirect (either IL20 or rocket strafe) because of their lack of speed.

It is ridiculous that ~3 minutes worth of fuel income and munitions income can take out 9 minutes worth of opportunity cost and fuel income. It is also especially egregious because it has effectively no counter; once the ram begins, every heavy tank the axis get other than the Tiger will die to the combo; this is partly why the Tiger is essentially the only heavy Axis tank built in high level 2v2s.

Possible ways to balance the combo:

- Remove Ram. I would recommend this the most: The T34 is an excellent unit that is about as effective as all the other mediums in the game, and soviets have excellent late game besides the T34. The T34 does not need ram. Ram is an artifact of the era in balance when T34s were half the effectiveness of the Panzer 4 and most of the soviet late game AT would be dealt with AT guns, heavy tanks or the SU85/76.
- Remove the stun from Ram; it now only slows for a set amount of time, enough so that a heavy tank can escape on a standard 2v2 map before the indirect hits.
- Reduce the amount of damage the rocket strafe/IL-20 does to heavy tanks. I don't like this option beacause I think these abilities should do lots of damage heavy tanks, it just becomes unbalanced when paired with an ability that makes these indirect options unavoidable.


Agree. I can't believe how balance team still ignores this.
6 Apr 2020, 09:35 AM
#54
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 04:01 AMDomine



Support or not doesn't make difference in the case of ram, as it ignores engine damage and also gives out engine damage once the ram actually runs out. I also like how the only heavy tanks able to go in unsupported have to be the allied ones. Very convenient

That's not true at all. For the ram to work it needs to be popped before the engine gets popped. If the ram is called and then you try and blow the engine you are too late. Support your damn armour instead of whining. It works better.
6 Apr 2020, 10:39 AM
#55
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

Guys, just give P4 the ram ability and make Stuka one hot ISU and IS2 ....
one day after it hits the life server every allied player will crying.


U get to much value out off the Ram and the possible heavy armor kill.
When u get an early T34 u can get some kills with it and get enough value out of it ... it shouldet be much more. T34 should be a cheap/weak spammable Tank(Thats what is was) And not a 1 click Heavy counter.


And one word to mine laying... The commander with the ISU has also the IL2 strike....

Tell me pls how u want to mine ur frontline against the much better soviet recons and the ISU ?
6 Apr 2020, 10:50 AM
#56
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

T34 should be a cheap/weak spammable Tank(Thats what is was) And not a 1 click Heavy counter.

Well, unfortunately, it isn't.
For each 4 P4s you can get 5 T34s and P4s will still win due to superior armor and penetration.
Its more affordable, but its most certainly not spammable compared to any other stock med with exception of OKW P4.

And one word to mine laying... The commander with the ISU has also the IL2 strike....

That counters mines how?

Tell me pls how u want to mine ur frontline against the much better soviet recons and the ISU ?

Which better soviet recons? Vetted T-70 if its somehow alife at that stage?
Which soviet ability is better/more effective then vetted 222 with scopes or UHU?
6 Apr 2020, 11:30 AM
#57
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 213

Imo just remove the ram-ability or atleast change it into a skillshot like firefly tulips.
And i think the il2-bombing strike should be able to inflict major dmg on heavy tanks and tank destroyers. Because without ram such abilities like il2 need some skill to reliable hit them and should pay off if so.
Maybe the t34 tanks could get a passive ability like pgrens.
So when they are near infantry they gain a small speed and/or reload bonus (nothing major).
6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AM
#58
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 170 | Subs: 1

Ram also has a lot of "legacy RNG" tied to it that can be a source of extreme frustration.

Assuming the coh2 ability guide is up-to-date (should be since ram has been untouched forever) ram still has a 5% chance of heavy engine damage and 3% chance of immobilization. Those 2 crits are a certain death to any tank and the small chance to dodge an IL2 / rocket strafe combo is reduced to zero.

If nothing more those retarded crits need to go - there isn't any justification for them and they just cause unnecessary bg /leave moments. (unless one wants pure RNG to win fights)

6 Apr 2020, 12:03 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Ram also has a lot of "legacy RNG" tied to it that can be a source of extreme frustration.

Assuming the coh2 ability guide is up-to-date (should be since ram has been untouched forever) ram still has a 5% chance of heavy engine damage and 3% chance of immobilization. Those 2 crits are a certain death to any tank and the small chance to dodge an IL2 / rocket strafe combo is reduced to zero.

If nothing more those retarded crits need to go - there isn't any justification for them and they just cause unnecessary bg /leave moments. (unless one wants pure RNG to win fights)


+1, but there also isn't any justification why T34 should be immobilized and lose its gun when other tank doesn't lose its own, because using ram is a 100% chance of losing tank under any circumstances other then "it rammed the only AT unit of opposing faction".
6 Apr 2020, 12:06 PM
#60
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

tbh, i still don't know why there are endless players going full heavy when they spot the good old T34 spam/ram tactic. I just go 2xJP4 and mines :D
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