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Feuersturm doctrine

25 Mar 2020, 07:49 AM
#1
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 116

Yesterday used this doctrine, and I wondered who came up with the idea to use a commander slot that replaces the volksgrenadier flame-nade with a regular frag-nade.

I can't be the only one that find this highly illogical, am I?
25 Mar 2020, 08:01 AM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1

Well the combination of smoke grenade and incendiary grenade would simply be too good vs garrison.

The MP-40 upgrade should simply be removed and the MP-40 VG should become a separate unit similar to Assault tommies.

I would mind testing the MP-40 becoming stock and the MP44 becoming doctrinal either.
25 Mar 2020, 08:06 AM
#3
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2448 | Subs: 1

The doctrine is loaded with anti-garrison with flamer pios and flame barrage. I like that volks get a normal grenade to get those juicy yellow-cover squad wipes.
25 Mar 2020, 09:16 AM
#4
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 116

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 08:01 AMVipper
Well the combination of smoke grenade and incendiary grenade would simply be too good vs garrison.

The MP-40 upgrade should simply be removed and the MP-40 VG should become a separate unit similar to Assault tommies.

I would mind testing the MP-40 becoming stock and the MP44 becoming doctrinal either.


Closing in with the smoke nade of 1 squad and throwing the flame nade from a second squad still bares the same result. Don't think anyone would ever make 2 or more squads with those 5x MP40's. It rings more logic to me if the frag was swapped back with the flame nade and make the smoke and flame nade share cooldown.

Making the stock upgrade 3x or 5x MP40 would give room for a doctrinal upgrade to 2x STG44. However, I don't think anyone would ever mess up his Volksgrens like that. Atleast I wouldn't, sturmpio's are still a better CQC squad than 5x MP40.



The doctrine is loaded with anti-garrison with flamer pios and flame barrage. I like that volks get a normal grenade to get those juicy yellow-cover squad wipes.


I'd still like to see it switched, making the Flame-nade doctrinal for feuersturm and give them the simple frag as stock nade.
25 Mar 2020, 09:17 AM
#5
avatar of PatFenis
Benefactor 116

Posts: 5

I actually prefer the regular nades for them, gives them better wiping power compared to the incendiary. Even though compared to all other nades, its literally the worst grenade or at least most inconsistent grenade of them all
25 Mar 2020, 09:29 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1



Closing in with the smoke nade of 1 squad and throwing the flame nade from a second squad still bares the same result. Don't think anyone would ever make 2 or more squads with those 5x MP40's. It rings more logic to me if the frag was swapped back with the flame nade and make the smoke and flame nade share cooldown.

Making the stock upgrade 3x or 5x MP40 would give room for a doctrinal upgrade to 2x STG44. However, I don't think anyone would ever mess up his Volksgrens like that. Atleast I wouldn't, sturmpio's are still a better CQC squad than 5x MP40.

I am simply explaining the logic not defending it.

Imo the commander currently bring the Opel which is OP and incendiary barrage that can ruin UKF play and is better used in large modes mostly.

There are a number of changes that could improve the commander like:
Making MP-40 VGs a separate unit instead of an upgrade and moving the flamer to barrage

Replacing the the lieg incendiary barrage with a a mortar that can fire incendiary rounds that
can be found urban assault commander

Allow ST to equip both sweeper and flamer having one active at the time

Make hezter a call in unit, increase rear armor, remove DOT and add dot in as an ability
25 Mar 2020, 09:45 AM
#7
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 116

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 09:29 AMVipper

I am simply explaining the logic not defending it.


Ah, my comment wasn't meant aggresive in anyway. Just having 2 nades on 1 unit would work out the same as 2 units with 1 nade :).

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 09:29 AMVipper
Imo the commander currently bring the Opel which is OP and incendiary barrage that can ruin UKF play and is better used in large modes mostly.

There are a number of changes that could improve the commander like:
Making MP-40 VGs a separate unit instead of an upgrade and moving the flamer to barrage

Replacing the the lieg incendiary barrage with a a mortar that can fire incendiary rounds that
can be found urban assault commander

Allow ST to equip both sweeper and flamer having one active at the time

Make hezter a call in unit, increase rear armor, remove DOT and add dot in as an ability


What benefit would the MP40 VG get from being a seperate unit instead of an upgrade on regular VG?

replacing the lieg isn't necessary imo, the commander already forces the player to battlegroupe, so Allied could make use of that.

OR we could move the hetzer to mechanized HQ making that a choice the player has to make (lieg+flame barrage OR hetzer). Getting it a requirement for the Schwere to be set up (with or without the Authorization).
25 Mar 2020, 10:07 AM
#8
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2448 | Subs: 1


I'd still like to see it switched, making the Flame-nade doctrinal for feuersturm and give them the simple frag as stock nade.


This would leave stock OKW with very bad early game anti-garrison options - especially if you want to go mechanized instead of medtruck as an opening.
25 Mar 2020, 10:31 AM
#9
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 116

Hmm, could be. Tho double frag nade and some small arms fire..

Wouldn't underestimate a early stuka su fuss. Other factions do lack flame-nades too and don't always have flamers available for the engineers (UKF/USF).

USF has mortars, but I rarely see that one used.
UKF has the wasp, but that would hit the field around the same time as the stuka does (does it not?)
25 Mar 2020, 10:52 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1


What benefit would the MP40 VG get from being a seperate unit instead of an upgrade on regular VG?

The unit would be available earlier like most many other SMG troops
The unit can be designed with bonuses and abilities that better suite its role


replacing the lieg isn't necessary imo, the commander already forces the player to battlegroupe, so Allied could make use of that.

Problem is that one should not be forced to T1 just to use a doctrinal ability and in addition T1 sort over laps with Opel.


OR we could move the hetzer to mechanized HQ making that a choice the player has to make (lieg+flame barrage OR hetzer). Getting it a requirement for the Schwere to be set up (with or without the Authorization).

These OKW specialized units should be available even without T4 being available.
25 Mar 2020, 11:27 AM
#11
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 597

The changes to Feuersturm made the commander a lot better than before.
The only thing that I would like to change is the barrage for the Leigs. I dont think this ability justifies a whole commander slot.
An OKW version of the Arty Officer would be a nice replacement. The Officer could get the inc. barrage as ability then.
25 Mar 2020, 11:28 AM
#12
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2037

Nice commander but gets completely butchered by the broken .50 cal and OP Dshka spammers in 1v1.
25 Mar 2020, 11:44 AM
#13
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2084

Yesterday used this doctrine, and I wondered who came up with the idea to use a commander slot that replaces the volksgrenadier flame-nade with a regular frag-nade.

I can't be the only one that find this highly illogical, am I?


yes and it's the exact reason why I never use the MP40 package. No flame nade means they suck hard on urban maps... which is the type of map they are intended to fight on.

But it is still a very good and underestimated doctrine nonetheless!
25 Mar 2020, 11:49 AM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14599 | Subs: 7



yes and it's the exact reason why I never use the MP40 package. No flame nade means they suck hard on urban maps... which is the type of map they are intended to fight on.

Quite positive LEIG inc rounds are supposed to cover for that.
25 Mar 2020, 11:50 AM
#15
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2084

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 11:49 AMKatitof

Quite positive LEIG inc rounds are supposed to cover for that.


ok my post was not 100% accurate, another big reason is the Stg44 package being (imo) far superior even if u dont take the nades into account
25 Mar 2020, 12:25 PM
#16
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 150

the feuerstum nade is pretty awesome, i think peaple think its the pfussis version. It actually is a buffed one, more comparable to a schock nade, pretty good to get wipes, even on top 50 ish 2vs2 players or above.

mp40 Volk package is nice, and allows you to play more agressive espacially against mgs, you also get a rec acc buff if i recall correctly. I actually think this is an amazing early game commander, you can for example go mech with luchs and use the Opel as an ambulance(cost 50 mp less and 10 fuel more than an actually ambo, which is fine by me). The only thing thats seems a little bit lackluster is the leig flame barrage since its a very specific ablity for a very specific unit you dont neccesarly have acess to.

but to conclude 4 mp40 volks supported by Opel and luchs used by a skilled player can basically end the game in 15 min
25 Mar 2020, 12:26 PM
#17
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 53

I usually pick Feuersturm if against multiple UKF players (or just one Cancer Commander). No other commander comes close to the sheer amount of burning Brits and emplacements this doc generates. Can outtank the mortar pit/enemy mortars with the truck and have decreased reload times.

Also might pick if I suspect there'll be a Shock/Thompson Ranger spam. Flammenhetzer is extremely good at melting through blobs.
25 Mar 2020, 12:54 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 7640 | Subs: 1

the feuerstum nade is pretty awesome, i think peaple think its the pfussis version. It actually is a buffed one, more comparable to a schock nade, pretty good to get wipes, even on top 50 ish 2vs2 players or above.

It is more or less a standard grenade. PF used to be UP.

25 Mar 2020, 13:04 PM
#19
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1133



This would leave stock OKW with very bad early game anti-garrison options - especially if you want to go mechanized instead of medtruck as an opening.


Why not give them both again, like in an older game version? Also, MP40 instead STG44 as normal weaponwould be more logical, like Vipper said.

Beside, at the moment the hole weapon-profiles became confusing.

.......

etc.

Beside, the flame-nade is useless, even versus garrisons. xD
25 Mar 2020, 13:14 PM
#20
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 53



Why not give them both again, like in an older game version? Also, MP40 instead STG44 as normal weaponwould be more logical, like Vipper said.

Beside, at the moment the hole weapon-profiles became confusing.

.......

etc.


MP40s are only good at very close range and suffer from a rapidly decreasing application for mid-to-far. StG44s like all assault rifles still have good application even for mid-to-far. In essence, you'd be wasting your time shooting at that conscript on the edge of sight range (35) or even mid. For a mainline infantry squad, having only close-in weapons will get you punished badly against typical counterparts like BAR Rifles, Bren Tommies or even Cons behind sandbags.




The StG44 upgrade is in effect a net dps increase for volks, when compared with their Kar 98s, except at the very very extreme edge of their range. Even there, it's barely a drop. Getting up close to StG44 volks is....not advisable except by specialists.




I hope this has clears up some of the confusion about basic small arms weapon profiles.

---

Flame nade has one major advantage against garrisons that regular nades do not - no one wants to go into that building you just tossed a flame nade into. Popping in and out of a building is severely punished by the DoT.
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