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Feuersturm doctrine

25 Mar 2020, 13:20 PM
#21
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1197


...


I know, but then Assault-Pios should have MG40 then.

OKW

- Assault-Pios: change STG with MP40
- Volks: let them like they are now (only let MP40-upgrade make then a new unit, e.g. like Grens with 5men)

OST:

- Pio: change MP40 with Lugar P09 Pistol
- weapon-crews: change MP40 with OKW-crew-weapon K98
- Storm-troupes: change MP40 with PPSH (german used them on mass, even build a 9mm version)

So the blueprints fit the DPS again.

.......

Give Volks also a normal grenade and lock it like Obersoldaten (FlaK-truck)
25 Mar 2020, 13:23 PM
#22
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 217 | Subs: 1



I know, but then Assault-Pios should have MG40 then.

OKW

- Assault-Pios: change STG with MP40
- Volks: let them like they are now (only let MP40-upgrade make then a new unit, e.g. like Grens with 5men)

OST:

- Pio: change MP40 with Lugar P09 Pistol
- weapon-crews: change MP40 with OKW-crew-weapon K98
- Storm-troupes: change MP40 with PPSH (german used them on mass, even build a 9mm version)

So the blueprints fit the DPS again.


What you propose would effectively kill the OKW as a faction early game. (No MG until after teching, remember?) Besides, you kinda got your wish for MP40 like SPs....just a meaner close-range version of the StG44.



Pios are already very easily beaten by almost any basic allied infantry squad 1v1, discounting the upgrades. Only if you let them shoot you can they do much. Maybe RE/Combat Engineers lose to them....maybe, and even that requires some bad play.
25 Mar 2020, 13:35 PM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8599 | Subs: 1


...
MP40s are only good at very close range and suffer from a rapidly decreasing application for mid-to-far. ..

I hope this has clears up some of the confusion about basic small arms weapon profiles.
...


ST44 upgrade is a badly designed upgrade (Similar to Penal SVT) concentrating the DPS of large squad i into 2 weapons while having a almost linear curve reducing the effect of relative positioning. In addition is allot closer to the G43 (which uses the carbine profile) then to other ST44.

It also part of the reason why most other weapons where buffed.

By replacing the ST44 upgrade with MP-40 upgrade a player would simply have to choose which of his units he wants to upgrade with MP-40 and which leave with K98. Then Ostheer/UKF would not be in desperate need for buffs and one could start nerfing the Soviet and USF.
25 Mar 2020, 13:52 PM
#25
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2815

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 13:35 PMVipper
By replacing the ST44 upgrade with MP-40 upgrade a player would simply have to choose which of his units he wants to upgrade with MP-40 and which leave with K98.


As long as BARs are in their current form that's not possible. OKW needs an all range upgrade on Volks otherwise it's not even a contest. MP40s die to MG spam since you can't even approach and Kar98s are a total joke.
25 Mar 2020, 13:54 PM
#26
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 217 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 13:35 PMVipper


ST44 upgrade is a badly designed upgrade (Similar to Penal SVT) concentrating the DPS of large squad i into 2 weapons while having a almost linear curve reducing the effect of relative positioning. In addition is allot closer to the G43 (which uses the carbine profile) then to other ST44.

It also part of the reason why most other weapons where buffed.

By replacing the ST44 upgrade with MP-40 upgrade a player would simply have to choose which of his units he wants to upgrade with MP-40 and which leave with K98. Then Ostheer/UKF would not be in desperate need for buffs and one could start nerfing the Soviet and USF.


By that logic we'd have to junk any and every upgrade that concentrates DPS into 2 members, and as a continuation of that logic, also one member. Same problem of having too much DPS concentration. Shall we also have the Ober LMG34 nerfed to oblivion because it has 3.77 Ober Kar 98s worth of DPS at 35 range? Ostruppen (Grenadier) LMG nerfed because it has 8.37 Ost Kar98s worth of DPS at 35 range?

I think the existing system works fine. The whole point of the original StG44 volks upgrade was to give them better AI performance as I can tell you even the old old vet V volks really struggled 1v1 vs an LMG inf squad. Reducing it to Kar 98s would make them seriously overwhelmed in late-game even with Vet. As it stands, yesterday I had exactly this situation of a vet V StGvolks vs (vet III?) M1919A6 Rifles. BARELY matched that firepower. Barely. Only cos he was in open and I was in Light cover, did it become a win for my squad.
25 Mar 2020, 14:35 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8599 | Subs: 1



By that logic we'd have to junk any and every upgrade that concentrates DPS into 2 members, and as a continuation of that logic, also one member.

Not really. The issue exist mostly for durable squads with 5+ entities and it start to become a problem when it available to mainline infatry.


Same problem of having too much DPS concentration. Shall we also have the Ober LMG34 nerfed to oblivion because it has 3.77 Ober Kar 98s worth of DPS at 35 range?

Actually Ober had a similar change in the past and some of the DPS of the LMG was move to k98.


Ostruppen (Grenadier) LMG nerfed because it has 8.37 Ost Kar98s worth of DPS at 35 range?

Ostruppen lmg has half the DPS of grenadier lmg, is available at BP 3 and the unit is not durable. But is not really working and it should be replaced a bonuses similar to 7 conscripts.


I think the existing system works fine. The whole point of the original StG44 volks upgrade was to give them better AI performance as I can tell you even the old old vet V volks really struggled 1v1 vs an LMG inf squad. Reducing it to Kar 98s would make them seriously overwhelmed in late-game even with Vet. As it stands, yesterday I had exactly this situation of a vet V StGvolks vs (vet III?) M1919A6 Rifles. BARELY matched that firepower. Barely. Only cos he was in open and I was in Light cover, did it become a win for my squad.

And there are multiple problem with the current implementation to voks:

Volks>>grenadier making balancing the difficult
Volks very cost efficient making doctrinal OKW infatry have to be even better

Again once Volks ST44 is removed or redesigned one can start nerfing Soviet/USF infantry. Else will simply keep buffing UKF/Ostheer and continue with the power creep.


But we are drifting off topic.
25 Mar 2020, 14:41 PM
#28
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 158

To get back, the conclusion as to why the flame nade was traded for a frag is because smoke + flame would be to powerful?

Seems to me that having 2 VG squads would achieve exactly the same result only makes controlling your squads a bit more complicated.



A simple solutions (imo) would be to add smoke&frag to the MP40-VG and keep the flame-nade (yea getting them 3 nades, or just add smoke and forget the frag) but make them share the cooldown.

Anyway, thanks for the insight in other people's point of view :)
25 Mar 2020, 14:58 PM
#29
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 933

While we are at it. Am I the only one who thinks the Flammhetzer is trash?

It is clumsy to begin with since it has no turret.

Historically it had the effective front armor of a Panther yet every shot seems to penetrate it. With KVs driving circles around Paks etc. I think an armour buff for the Hetzer is in place. You are delaying your Panzer IV (OKW power spike) significantly with the Flammhetzer and it is not worth it.
25 Mar 2020, 15:03 PM
#30
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 217 | Subs: 1

To get back, the conclusion as to why the flame nade was traded for a frag is because smoke + flame would be to powerful?

Seems to me that having 2 VG squads would achieve exactly the same result only makes controlling your squads a bit more complicated.



A simple solutions (imo) would be to add smoke&frag to the MP40-VG and keep the flame-nade (yea getting them 3 nades, or just add smoke and forget the frag) but make them share the cooldown.

Anyway, thanks for the insight in other people's point of view :)

I would hazard a guess that they did not want a squad that would simply just crush all early-game inf compositions (in urban areas) short of MG spam. Flame nade to kick a squad out of a building and then annihilate them up close and personal. Std grenade can be dodged.

While we are at it. Am I the only one who thinks the Flammhetzer is trash?

It is clumsy to begin with since it has no turret.

Historically it had the effective front armor of a Panther yet every shot seems to penetrate it. With KVs driving circles around Paks etc. I think an armour buff for the Hetzer is in place. You are delaying your Panzer IV (OKW power spike) significantly with the Flammhetzer and it is not worth it.


RL Hetzer had a 60mm plate angled to an effective 120mm, but in most situations the effective is much lower than that 120mm. Panther is 75mm angled to 150mm effective. But I'm not going to get involved in a discussion about RL shell physics here. Realism features haphazardly in this game.

Tl;dr Not Panther level.

It's much cheaper than a KV-8 and has a smaller model size of 15 vs 24. This is very important as many shots will miss, esp on the move. Even a Kubel only has size 14.

Game models the Flammenhetzer as having 180 armor, or stock pz IV level. Pz IV Auf Js have 234 armor.. Don't look at the unit as a pz IV auf J substitute, you'll just lose it to enemy meds. Consider it a specialist AI platform like a Centaur. Only, it's much MUCH better at AI than a Centaur is. Unlike vs a pz IV, AT guns consistently die in seconds. Very deadly for clearing blobs without massed AT or kicking desperate VP capping attempts. Looking at you smartarse Major with the smoke barrage. It didn't save you from the attack ground. Can't dodge flame tiles.
25 Mar 2020, 15:20 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8599 | Subs: 1

While we are at it. Am I the only one who thinks the Flammhetzer is trash?

It is clumsy to begin with since it has no turret.

Historically it had the effective front armor of a Panther yet every shot seems to penetrate it. With KVs driving circles around Paks etc. I think an armour buff for the Hetzer is in place. You are delaying your Panzer IV (OKW power spike) significantly with the Flammhetzer and it is not worth it.

I would call it "trash" but there are something that can be improved.

I would start with better mobility (mainly acceleration/rotation) and allot better rear armor.
25 Mar 2020, 15:53 PM
#32
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 224

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2020, 12:54 PMVipper

It is more or less a standard grenade. PF used to be UP.



yeah but the pfussi nade is worse. I think they wanted to buff it, but it was never done in the ig files. The Volk model 24 is much better, less throwing range though

and flamehetzer is fine to be honest, it has more armor than ostwind is cheaper and does a lot of dmg vs units in cover+ it seems to have a small target size. All pretty good for 90 fuel.

But ofc it is not an tiger so it sucks :D
25 Mar 2020, 16:10 PM
#33
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 217 | Subs: 1



But ofc it is not an tiger so it sucks :D


Summed up in one sentence the meta heh. Glad Heavies are being nerfed in the patch.
25 Mar 2020, 16:34 PM
#34
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1197



What you propose would effectively kill the OKW as a faction early game. (No MG until after teching, remember?) Besides, you kinda got your wish for MP40 like SPs....just a meaner close-range version of the StG44.



Pios are already very easily beaten by almost any basic allied infantry squad 1v1, discounting the upgrades. Only if you let them shoot you can they do much. Maybe RE/Combat Engineers lose to them....maybe, and even that requires some bad play.




Allied fanboy wants axis nerfs lmao


Lord, let rain brain... I am talking about blue-prints... there will be no change. xD
25 Mar 2020, 17:06 PM
#35
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2815

Lord, let rain brain... I am talking about blue-prints... there will be no change. xD


Give Volks also a normal grenade and lock it like Obersoldaten (FlaK-truck)


25 Mar 2020, 17:12 PM
#36
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2139 | Subs: 1

I wish they one day make the Flame Hetzer come in a fun doctrine.

I hate Feuerstorm as it is currently. OKW should have never gotten a mobile ambulance unit. It just promotes the most cancerous blobbing you will ever see.
25 Mar 2020, 17:36 PM
#37
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1197


...


Learn to quote.
25 Mar 2020, 17:51 PM
#38
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 217 | Subs: 1

I wish they one day make the Flame Hetzer come in a fun doctrine.

I hate Feuerstorm as it is currently. OKW should have never gotten a mobile ambulance unit. It just promotes the most cancerous blobbing you will ever see.


*Coughs in BAR Rifles*
25 Mar 2020, 18:20 PM
#39
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2139 | Subs: 1



*Coughs in BAR Rifles*


USF blobs are disgusting too. My complaint is that the Feuersturm truck was just recently added to the game by the balance team even though it just promotes bad a horrible playstyle. So many people complain about blobbing but then the balance team adds stuff that makes blobbing even easier so I wonder why that is.

I am not saying it's OP but when you have 50 IQ OKW players that decide to just send all their units around the map in a big blob with the truck in tow it makes you wonder why something like this was added to the game. At least with the USF ambulance, there is a lot of vulnerability to it because of how easily it dies.

This brainless strat of putting 2 units into the truck then driving to the cut off and camping there as long as possible is just retarded. OKW tends to blob the enemies cut off even without the truck but then at least they can be pushed off easier. I have heard so many complaints about brainless OKW cut-off rush strats so why should we promote this by giving OKW a mobile ambulance that is somewhat durable and even buffs infantry around it by reducing cool down on the abilities??? Makes zero sense.

I wish Feuersturm was a strong doctrine that didn't rely on cheese and abuse. It would be fun to have the Flame Hetzer in a doctrine that is viable in all game-modes. The cheesy truck could be replaced by something like the Ostheer Supply Truck, you could park it somewhere and have it act as a pseudo-cache (something OKW lacks). The Sturmpioneer flame package is mediocre and needs to be better because 4 man Sturmpioneers with Flamer are underwhelming. The Assault Package for Volks is meh. So make these abilities better and remove the blob truck and voila Feuerstorm would be a nice doctrine that doesn't just rely on making your opponent miserable because of retarded cheese tactics.

Maybe buff the Flame Hetzer by making it not require panzer authorisation?? I would have no problem with the shock value of an early Flame Hetzer.
25 Mar 2020, 18:26 PM
#40
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2815

My complaint is that the Feuersturm truck was just recently added to the game by the balance team even though it just promotes bad a horrible playstyle.


Not different from M5 and 251/250. If anything it's significantly better than all of them since it allows you to skip building a BGHQ so that you can get Luchs&Puma&Healing&Muni for mines and upgrades.

If the Opel Blitz was in other doctrines like Scavenge and Breakthrough they'd be meta af. Sadly only Feuerstorm has it rn and it's not viable until the .50cal is nerfed.
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