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russian armor

jackson armor nerf

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20 Jan 2020, 22:51 PM
#81
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



Yea, my mistake. Had the HVAP numbers instead of normal for some reason.


How so, especially compared to the M36?
It's slower, doesn't have a turret, doesn't have HVAP, and doesn't have a crew (and all the bonuses/gimmicks associated with that). A 60-range stug would come as either a more expensive unit, or as an expensive (i.e. not just ammo) upgrade to the normal stug.



1. Flanking, smoke, ambushes... just like Axis has to do now against SU85s and M36s when properly supported.

2. Axis early game is no stronger than Allied early game. Look at the current state of Sov early game and their scaling, as well as the performance of USF rifles, then also look at the power of Allied LVs compared to axis. Each side/faction has its strengths and weaknesses at most points in the game.

3. This is generally focused on the M36 - it's just that the armor nerf wouldn't change anything, as its been pointed out.



Why does axis need the extra micro tax on top of having to use a much squishier unit that also lacks a crew (and related gimmicks)?



Pretty much; against a decent team, OST is in a really tricky position. It's pretty common for late-game USF teams (2v2+) to have 4+ M36s, which makes Panthers basically useless. The only solution to that kind of match-up is a Pak40, but its incredibly vulnerable to any kind of indirect fire or just infantry.

A buffed Puma is an interesting idea, but it doesn't help OST, which is arguably in a much worse situation, since OKW also has the non-doc JP4.


+1

All over, what I see and all mates I knew. Also all my main Allii mates say that.

First fix the line-ups so the balancing of units can be made under realistic aspects (so Scott doesn't perform as Brummbär, KV2 doesn't outperform Brummbär by far).

Then fix the Commanders by removing most of them, or really bring them in line with tje non-doc lineup. Overwork all abilities, all fractions should have same counters with same performance.

Overall all fractions should have tools needing same ammount of micro and skill. Only hero-units should work assymetrical.

And no, not a AoE clone, that is how CoH1 was balanced. All fractions had an effective counter. Only path-finding and the camouflage system made it bad.

Edit. In some points patch team got the ideas... then they fuc*ed it up with commander overwork and last hand of patches. XD

PS sorry, my text is full of rage and bad english. Greetings from Austria.
20 Jan 2020, 23:38 PM
#82
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306



Not sure what you want to say with that. But keep in mind that we are still talking about reliable penetration. P4 has a 84-96% pen chance against the Jackson, so bouncing a shot is more bad luck once in a while. That still a 50% chance to pen 4/4 shots at max range and a 65% chance to pen 4/4 at mid range. We are talking about the same pen chances which people use to argue that the Panther were shite and needs an armor buff because a dedicated tank destroyer will pen with 85-90% chance (at vet 0).

Just to put this into perspective. Shadow posted the values, but apparently no one thought much about what they actually mean.


Of course they are valid. But as I said, Puma needs 13 secs if it's lucky. That's the only issue I see. That's why my point so far is that the best approach is to probably get ~10 armor off the Jackson. That gives P4 more than enough chance to pen next to every shot while Puma will probably not cause much issues.


It was basically saying that the tradeoff of p4 penning the Jackson 100% does less gameplay wise then the interaction with the puma. Anyways I would be happy if the Jackson got that 10 armor nerf. Still not 100% but hey, i take anything that makes a better gameplay experience

Btw i love how i asked for a simple reasonable change and peaple highjacked it into their dreams of a completly new balance, but im glad my idea got such positive feedback!
20 Jan 2020, 23:46 PM
#83
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


But that thread is a bad jocke, pointing on something with interest, while knowing the problem is something else.


If you know what the problem is, I'll repeat myself:

Make. Your. Own. Fucking. Thread.

OP is talking about an unrelated issue. He's not saying this is the only problem with the Jackson. Just one of them

Instead of talking about that, you're filling the thread with wild unconnected crap that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. If you have ideas, please share them. In a thread about them........

20 Jan 2020, 23:49 PM
#84
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Better than nothing. But I think less acc. on Jackson will be a bigger buff for P4, because you will be able to hunt, like a battletank should.
21 Jan 2020, 00:28 AM
#85
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


but changing it requires a lot of brainstorming

Actually it does not, but everytime a thread discusses about ""Nerfin"" the M36 a whole army of fanboys defend it because it carries their games.

I would rather not rephrase myself, but i once said: "If a faction relies too much on a single unit, it is a clear sign of OP" - Use it as you will, namely volks, T70, Falls, M36, IS, Eleph

I assume my mistake on saying that a puma is 2 shoted by M36, i have not taken account the HVAP bonus damage and also as widerstrait said, with USF having multiple anti light options that extra single shot damage is often non existent.

21 Jan 2020, 02:03 AM
#86
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

What should reliably counter jackson is panther.
A simple step up about economics and tiering and teching

Making puma more reliable by weakening m36 armor, feels like concerned trolling and pity bump. The proposed solution don't hit real issue and limited in application

What's next? Reduce is2 armor bounce against handheld AT
21 Jan 2020, 02:29 AM
#87
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Actually it does not, but everytime a thread discusses about ""Nerfin"" the M36 a whole army of fanboys defend it because it carries their games


Actually it does, otherwise the Jackson wouldn't have received so many different changes since launch and STILL be a problem. But that's not the point...

I was not saying "it's too complicated so don't bother trying to nerf it", I was saying "it's really complicated, and this fucking thread is about something else so go make your own about this different issue"

Can you show me an example of one of these Jackson threads where a horde of US fanboys ruined it? And if their fanboys who cares what they say? You're not giving the mod team enough credit if you think their decisions are effected by the nonsense coming from Codguy's keyboard...
21 Jan 2020, 02:39 AM
#88
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:03 AMmrgame2
What should reliably counter jackson is panther.
A simple step up about economics and tiering and teching

Making puma more reliable by weakening m36 armor, feels like concerned trolling and pity bump. The proposed solution don't hit real issue and limited in application

What's next? Reduce is2 armor bounce against handheld AT


If Panther reliably counters Jackson, what counters Panther? Why would anyone even build the Jackson if it does not effectively fight heavy armor?

@OP armor nerf would be an interesting idea, sure.
21 Jan 2020, 02:43 AM
#89
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792



If Panther reliably counters Jackson, what counters Panther? Why would anyone even build the Jackson if it does not effectively fight heavy armor?

@OP armor nerf would be an interesting idea, sure.


You can make panther effectively fight jackson. And still retain Jackson effectiveness against panther and heavies. It is not 1 or 0.

Cost of panther to perf is simply poor

Op m36 armor nerf is pointless since puma is okw nondoc.
21 Jan 2020, 03:32 AM
#90
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:43 AMmrgame2
You can make panther effectively fight jackson. And still retain Jackson effectiveness against panther and heavies. It is not 1 or 0.

Cost of panther to perf is simply poor

Op m36 armor nerf is pointless since puma is okw nondoc.


While I don't disagree with you, balancing it so that the M36 and Panther counter eachother would be an insanely difficult task, since the balance would need to be so incredibly precise. It could also run into the situation where if one player comes out even slightly ahead, they'd win automatically, since either could become nigh-unbeatable via snowballing. It could end up being like current "sniper wars", except that would be the entire late-game.
21 Jan 2020, 03:44 AM
#91
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

Imo panther-V-jackson dynamics are about there, almost.

Give them a design asymmetric role, build around the costs.
But right now Jackson is just more cost effective.

So tweaks on either the cost or performance is just needed. +5 fuel don't cut it. Decrease armor don't too.

As we have listed jackson strengths, simply great to stacked with vet and units composition.

I leaned towards vipper view, of nerfing units than power creep as late balance goals.

Though i wont mind better panther vet bonus from moving accuracy or abilities or earlier/more rof.
21 Jan 2020, 03:49 AM
#92
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


Can you show me an example of one of these Jackson threads where a horde of US fanboys ruined it? And if their fanboys who cares what they say? You're not giving the mod team enough credit if you think their decisions are effected by the nonsense coming from Codguy's keyboard...

First of all, dont start a flame war if you are not going to handle it afterwards. CODGUYS is the worst example your could pick. Your post are beyond flame to other users aswell, sit back and relax or just leave the forums for better.

You are free to read all the previous threads about M36, im not here to babysit anyone.

One thing is certain, M36 dominating tank to tank wars is above comfortable, just some micro to keep it at range and thats it. This kind of "retoric" discussions of panthers vs jacksons vs heavies vs TDs are just the way this so called fanboys disrupts threads. Again you are welcome to start your own reading and realize it for yourself.

I woulnt summon the dev team into this discussion unless you have solid proof that "their desitions are affected", they respond to the game design, and then the community feedback, not the other way around.
21 Jan 2020, 07:26 AM
#93
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1



Fantastic Suggestion! I'd love to get my hands on a Non-vetted Snare, Cheap field upgrade, and a rifle grenade!.

I Would be all for it!

Edit: Forgot to mention the cheaper reinforcement cost. God I would love that



I see you're playing COH3 already. For the rest of us, grenadiers cost more manpower to reinforce than riflemen do.

But in any case, speaking from the perspective of an actually decent USF player, I'd never want my Riflemen to be nerfed to that of a 4-man squad with the atrocious grenadier weapon profile.

You're envious of someone having a chicken wing and you're somehow willing to trade a whole turkey for it.

If we ever made Riflemen as bad as Grenadiers - CODGUY would literally kill himself. Is that what you want?

21 Jan 2020, 08:45 AM
#94
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

We'd all love to see Jackson nerfed so it is dedicated to counter heavy tanks. I mean not to have to spend 145 fuel for a unit that's only good vs tank so early in-game only to keep Pz4s back. Any USF player would love it.

But hey USF is stuck with AI Sherman and Scott doing the same job on top of riflemen and nothing for mid-game AT damage.

When you play Ostheer, you're pissed with the lack of light vehicle counter, when you play USF that's the same shit with medium tanks.
21 Jan 2020, 08:51 AM
#95
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 02:03 AMmrgame2
What should reliably counter jackson is panther


It already does. A well timed Panther dive can easily kill a Jackson on most occasions.
21 Jan 2020, 09:40 AM
#96
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


First of all, dont start a flame war if you are not going to handle it afterwards. CODGUYS is the worst example your could pick. Your post are beyond flame to other users aswell, sit back and relax or just leave the forums for better.


What is your problem dude, you have been misreading me the whole time

OP made a very specific thread about jackson v p4/puma. Some users started talking about stug buffs. I agree the Jackson needs changes, but instead of insulting the Op for not making the thread they wanted, I suggested they go make the thread themselves about these other ideas. Please fucking explain to me what your problem is with that idea?

The OP literally just said this on page 4 and you all ignored him:

whats gonna counter 60 range stugs supported by command p4? whats the egde allies gonna have? when stug is faster and has faster rate of fire then su85?

axis already has a very strong early game in team games becouse of mg42... or just okw things...

please keep the topic on the Jackson and espacially the proposed change in Jackson puma interaction in order to make p4 pen Jackson 100%


Can I make this any clearer?

This kind of "retoric" discussions of panthers vs jacksons vs heavies vs TDs are just the way this so called fanboys disrupts threads. Again you are welcome to start your own reading and realize it for yourself.


I literally already said I agree that the jackson is too good. Just saying lets stick to the Jackson v P4/Puma interaction that this thread is about


You are free to read all the previous threads about M36, im not here to babysit anyone.

I woulnt summon the dev team into this discussion unless you have solid proof that "their desitions are affected", they respond to the game design, and then the community feedback, not the other way around.


So when I ask you to provide a source, you're "babysitting me". But then you say I need a source to back up my claim. Great consistency there buddy....

My posts are not flame to most users, just people like you who have already made up their mind about me before they even read my post. Or who can't read and try to argue against something that I didn't even say...
21 Jan 2020, 09:55 AM
#97
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Puma does not sound like a good option vs M36 because of:
Low far penetration
Low far accuracy
Low damage
Low speed modifier in rough terrain
21 Jan 2020, 09:59 AM
#98
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jan 2020, 09:55 AMVipper
Puma does not sound like a good option vs M36 because of:
Low far penetration
Low far accuracy
Low damage
Low speed modifier in rough terrain


I mean if we made the Jackson's armor 90-100, that would give it really good pen chances at all ranges?

Jackson also has a larger than average target size iirc, and the pumas vet 1 ability gives it a decent chance against most t4 units. If the armor nerf went through i think that would be a good spot

I could be overplaying the target size difference though, i trust your intuition on the accuracy point more than mine

Side note: Is it crazy to ask for a 2nd puma cmdr on Ostheer? If it became a more reliable jackson killer that would be a good idea i feel. Maybe give mobile defense some love too
21 Jan 2020, 10:22 AM
#99
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792



It already does. A well timed Panther dive can easily kill a Jackson on most occasions.


My grief is cost performance of panther is not up to it.

Anyway can we stop with armor/puma talk. It dont make sense.

First puma is not wehr stock unit
Secondly okw supposedly have jp4.
Thirdly as vipper said, too much stats deficit of puma and causes micro tax. Besides that range and damage deficiency too
21 Jan 2020, 12:51 PM
#100
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220

Jackson need nerf then maybe finnaly usf players will use shermans and zooks as AT option. We all know jackson is the reason why people dont make Shermans against panthers so we must nerf jackson.

Someone said about 60 range stug i like it but his canon must deal 120 dmg per shot like su76
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