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russian armor

jackson armor nerf

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31 Jan 2020, 17:28 PM
#321
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2277



You can never balance P4/Puma with Jacksons because of the USF army design. USF only have Jackson that can fight Panthers while Axis has variety of options from Puma, P4 (can fight infantry!), stug, Panther, & JP.

If you want to nerf Jackson's armor or reload than give USF non-doctrinal choices for alternatives. USF late game AT options are limited to Jackson spam almost every game.

It is pretty unfair that you compare a single faction with 2 axis factions combined. OST does not have pumas and OKW P4 has not the same impact that OST one. Not even going to continue the idea since its already settled.

To nerf Jacksons armor means such a little change it shouldnt even bother a normal skill player, since as many other ones here said, if you F'ed up and a P4 got close quarters to you jackson its more than logic that your TD get a fair pounding. There is still room for the M36 escape to escape, but again it demands skill.

A good analogy is treating m36 like a sniper, is someone got a whole squad of shock troopers right beside a sniper, would it be fair that the single press of 'R' will save the sniper? I think that no one will say yes to that. Jacksons are not as fragile luckily but that doesnt mean it must be unbeatable either.
31 Jan 2020, 22:25 PM
#322
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3954 | Subs: 1



You can never balance P4/Puma with Jacksons because of the USF army design. USF only have Jackson that can fight Panthers while Axis has variety of options from Puma, P4 (can fight infantry!), stug, Panther, & JP.

If you want to nerf Jackson's armor or reload than give USF non-doctrinal choices for alternatives. USF late game AT options are limited to Jackson spam almost every game.


If you read... Any single post on here that isn't screeching bacuse the Jackson is the only AT unit the usf have you will see many posts saying to buff the alternatives

The issue with one unit doing everything is just as important as the one unit having to do everything.
USF has many tools that never see the light of day because of the Jackson.. First step is finding out what's needed by refining the maxim
31 Jan 2020, 22:31 PM
#323
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634

Once again, Jackson thread in a nutshell:

- The Jackson needs a nerf. How about 1% less acceleration?
- AHCTUALLY THE JACKSON IS THE ONLY USF AT OPTION TO FIGHT TIGERS AND ELEPHANTS AND IF YOU NERF IT YOU AHVE TO MEGABUFF EVERYTHING ELSE MKAY?
31 Jan 2020, 23:36 PM
#324
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2411 | Subs: 1


Because managing to fuck up so a p4 or puma is in range of your 60 range highly mobile TD shiuld be punished.


This is perfectly said

The p4 even used to be a serious threat to the Jackson. Back when m36 had 480hp and long reload, p4 in your face could be a real problem
1 Feb 2020, 01:06 AM
#325
avatar of Toxicfirebal

Posts: 61

Jackson need nerf then maybe finnaly usf players will use shermans and zooks as AT option. We all know jackson is the reason why people dont make Shermans against panthers so we must nerf jackson.

Someone said about 60 range stug i like it but his canon must deal 120 dmg per shot like su76


USF Zooks are trash and cant pen anything stronger than a puma reliably while USF AT hun needs muni dump to pen anything stronger than OST P4 reliably. So USF players use jackson as they as they can fight of Axis armour reliably with relatively few bounces. The jackson is to OP and the armour nerf would be a great idea so puma can soft counter it without damaging its AT role.
1 Feb 2020, 07:32 AM
#326
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8280 | Subs: 1

If one follows the patches to M36 one can see how the problem was created:

M36 Jackson


M36 Jackson


M36 Jackson


A unit designed to hit hard and slow only if it manged to penetrate now hits less hard but all the time:
A unit that started with 160 /180 /200 AP 220/250/280 ended up with 220/240/260 AP 250/280/300.
It also kept it vet bonus so at vet bonus penetration for 286/312/338 AP 325/364/390.

Note that normal fire at vet 3 currently has more penetration and ROF than the HVAP used to have.

In addition it kept its high accuracy, its accuracy bonus and moving accuracy modifiers.

When it comes to survive ability it had acceleration increased and kept it even when it has its HP increased.

The combination of the boost to base stats and high veterancy bonus simply make the unit OP. Reverting some of this changes or lowering the change to do damage can fix the problem without causing issue to USF.
Vaz
1 Feb 2020, 07:53 AM
#327
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 923

Just a note, I have a low skilled rank, but don't confuse me with someone new to the game. I've been playing coh since 2006, since my individual experience is so important to this discussion. In the first game I played mostly axis, as they were a greater challenge to me in that game.

Buffing other at options of the USF would create a bigger problem, because those weapons are going to way out of balance in comparison to other options. If the game designers can make gameplay changes that defy reality for the sake of better gameplay, then it should not be a problem to lower the armor values on heavier tanks. They shouldn't be sitting in front of at guns bouncing shots off of them. 1 atg is understandable, but multiples? It should be retreat or die and it's not like that right now, for heavies. I'm not a tourney player, but when I watch tourney games, I don't see the contestants doing any of the stupid shit I see people get away with in team games. It's not just axis opponents that do stupid shit either, allied players do it too. The difference is, the axis weapons are reliable and allied players get their units destroyed fast as you would expect. I see plenty of people screw up with their m36 and lose it and I don't see it as a balance issue. If there is anything wrong with the m36, it is def not the armor.

If I were to choose something to do with long range weapons that are seen as unfair, I'd change their usability. Slower turrets and lower accuracy at range. That means smaller and faster units are able to avoid the turret and bigger slower units are not. Smaller units get missed more often, bigger units still get hit. None of these tanks should have decent accuracy when moving either. Moving and shooting is more of a modern warfare accomplishment.
1 Feb 2020, 08:58 AM
#328
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

Well recapped vipper! Seems we like have a jackson fan in the mod team. :(

You forgot the last +5 fuel since it is over performing.

Idk, but in 2v2, do we all agree a vetted jackson is way better than a vetted panther?

Now consider the cost of a Jackson and a panther+pio. Things shouldn't be the case from a game design pov

I Will consider remove its rof and pen buff at vet. Replace perhaps with vet crew repairs and +5 sight at stationary. To emphasis its design of mobility.

No stock unit should always pen at max range. And no reason a 60td has almost same rof as panther.

Vaz
1 Feb 2020, 09:54 AM
#329
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 923

It doesn't always penetrate at max range, it bounces more at max range. On some heavy tanks it even bounces at near range.
1 Feb 2020, 11:40 AM
#330
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634

An alternative would be to remove the sabot rounds from the AT and give it a bit more pen (like 20 at all ranges), give the Jackson permanent HVAP shells (thus much more pen and much higher reload times)so it’s exclusively a heavy slayer, then put the M10 in the USF T3 as an anti medium counter.
1 Feb 2020, 13:13 PM
#331
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3954 | Subs: 1

If you put the m10 as stock the whining will just become "why do I need a whole new unit the fight certain vehicles!
1 Feb 2020, 14:01 PM
#332
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

Nay the M1 is a great spot now. It may have starting trouble against okw p4. But it is fast in everything, even vet up!

Im thinking. same thing.

Remove the jackson pen and rof vet bonus.

Instead vet2, hvap rounds damage 200 -> 240 and a faster cooldown. This scales against heavies in that time frame. At the same time panther vet2 armor is also scaling fairly against jackson normal rounds. Why is it fair Jackson vet can negate a more costly panther vet scaling?

This is also switchable ammo in a sense.

At vet3, give jackson the same spotting scopes stats and heavy crew repairs free.

I know some will say how about heavy JT,KT,Elefant. Eh, you know jackson is cheaper and can flank with greatest moving accuracy?

Questions to mod team, why P4 needs hard work against churchill? Why Jackson have easier work against doctrinal limited Axis heavy? Why panther have hard work against IS2? Come on, why Jackson should be sooo cost efficient?

Convince us why Jackson is in best spot now?

Besides axis heavies are already so slow in rof and targetting and rotating.
1 Feb 2020, 14:25 PM
#333
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 700

Nay the M1 is a great spot now. It may have starting trouble against okw p4. But it is fast in everything, even vet up!

Im thinking. same thing.

Remove the jackson pen and rof vet bonus.

Instead vet2, hvap rounds damage 200 -> 240 and a faster cooldown. This scales against heavies in that time frame. At the same time panther vet2 armor is also scaling fairly against jackson normal rounds. Why is it fair Jackson vet can negate a more costly panther vet scaling?

This is also switchable ammo in a sense.

At vet3, give jackson the same spotting scopes stats and heavy crew repairs free.

I know some will say how about heavy JT,KT,Elefant. Eh, you know jackson is cheaper and can flank with greatest moving accuracy?

Questions to mod team, why P4 needs hard work against churchill? Why Jackson have easier work against doctrinal limited Axis heavy? Why panther have hard work against IS2? Come on, why Jackson should be sooo cost efficient?

Convince us why Jackson is in best spot now?

Besides axis heavies are already so slow in rof and targetting and rotating.


Jackson is in the best spot right now because it prevents the Axis player from running roughshod over USF with his medium and heavy armor which are otherwise too readily available. This forces the Axis player to depend on other infantry and crewed weapons (which are also readily available) rather than using their otherwise superior armor as a crutch.
2 Feb 2020, 02:00 AM
#334
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 763

As long as the M36 can still counter Panthers and above USF would be fine with it being nerfed. The USF ATG does not struggle vs medium or light armor, nor do bazookas (much). It's only anything with 200+ armor that USF AT falls apart against (muh muni ATG APCR rounds doesn't cut it when it counts), and the M36 should specifically fill this niche rather than handily killing anything with tracks or wheels.
2 Feb 2020, 04:33 AM
#335
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

So how you guys think of my jackson suggestion

remove rof and pen buff
vet2: havp does 240 and 15% faster cooldown
vet3: spotting scope sight and heavy crew repairs

This will give panther an indirect buff, without any power creep.

This makes jackson closer to firefly style.
2 Feb 2020, 11:04 AM
#336
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 56

Anyone notice today the tank balance is between Panther & Jackson?

I think we can nerf all TDs back to what they were. Or keep the high pen but super long reload to make sure they still can pen Panther & Tiger on front and force them to retreat, but can be easily chased down by a pack of Medium.
But in return limit all Premium Medium to 2, and hp dropped to 800, reserve Panther armor back to 290.

As long as a player able to build 3 Panthers come with a Tiger, its hard to find a way to nerf Jackson.
2 Feb 2020, 11:05 AM
#337
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2038

So how you guys think of my jackson suggestion

remove rof and pen buff
vet2: havp does 240 and 15% faster cooldown
vet3: spotting scope sight and heavy crew repairs

This will give panther an indirect buff, without any power creep.

This makes jackson closer to firefly style.



??????????

It also doesn't make the Jackson closer to the Firefly because it still has WAY more mobility, better rate of fire and better penetration while not having the Firefly's accuracy and tulips. The only thing this would do is make Jackson even more OP with HVAP+spotting scope combo of doom.
2 Feb 2020, 14:03 PM
#338
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

Ok maybe not spotting scopes stat. How about just +5 sight. Also remove the suggested hvap cooldown buff.

Jackson base stats are understandably good but dealable. It's the vet bonus need toning down.

Basically this suggestion sorta revert Jackson closer to its original design. And also axis counterplays
2 Feb 2020, 14:43 PM
#339
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2634

Just make HVAP shells the default Jackson shells, so it has insane pen and low rate of fire. (Anti heavy buff/anti medium nerf)

Then remove sabot rounds from the M1 AT and give it some deflection damage so its time to kill is close to the other AT guns. (Anti medium buff/anti heavy nerf)

Make the LT a heavy weapons specialist, able to use elite bazookas.
2 Feb 2020, 16:00 PM
#340
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

Simple make Wolverin non-doc, so Jackson can become a heavy-counter only e.g. Panthers.

Then give StuG G the option as stationary AT-option (as MaderIII in CoH1) with 62,5 range (as hull-down, the 2,5 range extra is needed so it can shoot back).

Then Jackson gets worse acc. and maybe dps so Panzer 4 performs better.

etc. etc.


CoH2 needs more non-doc options, that is one mainproblem, the Commander-System is bad.
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