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russian armor

jackson armor nerf

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2 Feb 2020, 16:38 PM
#341
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15425 | Subs: 7

Simple make Wolverin non-doc, so Jackson can become a heavy-counter only e.g. Panthers.

Then give StuG G the option as stationary AT-option (as MaderIII in CoH1) with 62,5 range (as hull-down, the 2,5 range extra is needed so it can shoot back).

Then Jackson gets worse acc. and maybe dps so Panzer 4 performs better.
etc. etc.


CoH2 needs more non-doc options, that is one mainproblem, the Commander-System is bad.

We can then also nerf panther rate of fire and accuracy and buff its penetration, so it isn't counter-it-all tanks as well, but a heavy tank/high armor counter, StuG and JP4 will see more use, everyone will be happy!
2 Feb 2020, 16:42 PM
#342
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2757


We can then also nerf panther rate of fire and accuracy and buff its penetration, so it isn't counter-it-all tanks as well, but a heavy tank/high armor counter, StuG and JP4 will see more use, everyone will be happy!


Or just keep the rate of fire since it uses a 75mm gun not a 122mm one, and nerf its turret rotation and acceleration, as well as buff its armour and nerf its HP, so that you can easily kill it by getting behind it.
2 Feb 2020, 17:07 PM
#343
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1192


We can then also nerf panther rate of fire and accuracy and buff its penetration, so it isn't counter-it-all tanks as well, but a heavy tank/high armor counter, StuG and JP4 will see more use, everyone will be happy!


Sounds good.




Or just keep the rate of fire since it uses a 75mm gun not a 122mm one, and nerf its turret rotation and acceleration, as well as buff its armour and nerf its HP, so that you can easily kill it by getting behind it.


Can also be tested.

2 Feb 2020, 18:02 PM
#344
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2309


We can then also nerf panther rate of fire and accuracy and buff its penetration, so it isn't counter-it-all tanks as well, but a heavy tank/high armor counter, StuG and JP4 will see more use, everyone will be happy!

This is bait.

Hey Kat do you really think Panthers are a counter at all? What is it supposed to counter then? The allied players ego? Because all the tanks it counters are far cheaper that Panthers. That means below 100% cost efficiency investment. But Anything that counters Panthers is cheaper than it.

At least Jackson's are known counters because they punch above their weight cost wise and also discourage any medium maneuver, not like su85s to make it point as clear as I can.
2 Feb 2020, 19:03 PM
#345
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766


This is bait.

Hey Kat do you really think Panthers are a counter at all? What is it supposed to counter then? The allied players ego? Because all the tanks it counters are far cheaper that Panthers. That means below 100% cost efficiency investment. But Anything that counters Panthers is cheaper than it.

At least Jackson's are known counters because they punch above their weight cost wise and also discourage any medium maneuver, not like su85s to make it point as clear as I can.


Panther is a far harder medium tank counter than the M36, idk what you're on about.
2 Feb 2020, 19:09 PM
#346
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2757



Panther is a far harder medium tank counter than the M36, idk what you're on about.


If you're losing to a tank with 10 less range and 0.25 less moving accuracy, it's not a tank issue.
2 Feb 2020, 19:17 PM
#347
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766



If you're losing to a tank with 10 less range and 0.25 less moving accuracy, it's not a tank issue.


Which allied medium tank has 65 range?
On that topic though, you can definetely dive a M36 with the panther, range be damned. It just probably isnt worth it if the allied player isnt retarded because of the factors you mention. Which is WAD, since the M36 ought to be countering the Panther and up if nothing else.
2 Feb 2020, 19:38 PM
#348
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2309



Panther is a far harder medium tank counter than the M36, idk what you're on about.

Lol sure, on which scenario? Afk 1v1? Zombie brain playerbase? RNG baby rage fights?

Again, panthers are not counters of anything above their cost, hence the title counter is wrong. Some die hard allied fanboys use this term but jump between two different meanings. Cost efficient countering and actually be able to kill something countering. Sadly this logic only leads to misunderstandings, favoring those who want to disrupt an argument without answering it.

A counter is cost efficient by game design. ATG 》 Armor. HMG 》 infantry. TDs 》 tougher tanks.

A panther is not a counter, it's a superior version of medium, it's cost justifies its performance, but some allied bois don't care about that, only their precious TDs cost instead.

I was kind of right about Panthers really countering allied players ego
2 Feb 2020, 19:46 PM
#349
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 766


Lol sure, on which scenario? Afk 1v1? Zombie brain playerbase? RNG baby rage fights?

Again, panthers are not counters of anything above their cost, hence the title counter is wrong. Some die hard allied fanboys use this term but jump between two different meanings. Cost efficient countering and actually be able to kill something countering. Sadly this logic only leads to misunderstandings, favoring those who want to disrupt an argument without answering it.

A counter is cost efficient by game design. ATG 》 Armor. HMG 》 infantry. TDs 》 tougher tanks.

A panther is not a counter, it's a superior version of medium, it's cost justifies its performance, but some allied bois don't care about that, only their precious TDs cost instead.

I was kind of right about Panthers really countering allied players ego


What is the Tiger or the Pershing if not an infantry and tank counter? Would you say that exchange is not a counter because it is cost inefficient lol

The Panther has somewhat low pen values* for what it costs, sure. I don't disagree. It is however the absolute end-all when it comes to allied medium tanks, which do not stand a snowball's chance in hell of fighting it off because of its armor and HP. If you think that's not enough, fine. Don't build it. I know for a fact though that when I build the M36 it's because I'm at a point where if a Panther (or god forbid a Tiger) shows up I'm absolutely fucked because literally nothing I have is capable of fighting it lol

*The exact same as the M36
2 Feb 2020, 21:41 PM
#350
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2309



What is the Tiger or the Pershing if not an infantry and tank counter? Would you say that exchange is not a counter because it is cost inefficient lol

The Panther has somewhat low pen values* for what it costs, sure. I don't disagree. It is however the absolute end-all when it comes to allied medium tanks, which do not stand a snowball's chance in hell of fighting it off because of its armor and HP. If you think that's not enough, fine. Don't build it. I know for a fact though that when I build the M36 it's because I'm at a point where if a Panther (or god forbid a Tiger) shows up I'm absolutely fucked because literally nothing I have is capable of fighting it lol

*The exact same as the M36

Well we can agree on here. Panthers are on top of the food chain in stock units terms. Thats why they are so pesky and dangerous when massed. Same thing can happen (but with less impact) with UKF comets.

It is true though that i will say that neither tiger or pershings are "counters" to infantry or other tanks. They do a damn well job one shotting those models, sure but its like a sniper or a mortars, they get to damage the enemy with less impact on themselves. Its not a counter concept here but a "free-ish damage" deal concept.

And its a very interesting point that you highlighted that panthers vs m36 pen are compareble, i really dont know the numbers but its true that these two have a kind of balance in between. Panthers armor subjugates M36 to RNG when it comes to pen (even though not that much) and better range M36 can get some free shots before provoking a panther or kiting it.
It is important that this panther/jackson balance still persists, because its a core aspect of the game as it is now.
3 Feb 2020, 03:04 AM
#351
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 56

We can then also nerf panther rate of fire and accuracy and buff its penetration, so it isn't counter-it-all tanks as well, but a heavy tank/high armor counter, StuG and JP4 will see more use, everyone will be happy!

Or just keep the rate of fire since it uses a 75mm gun not a 122mm one, and nerf its turret rotation and acceleration, as well as buff its armour and nerf its HP, so that you can easily kill it by getting behind it.

- - -
These are actually good ieas, bring TDs & Panther become Heavy counter, so Medium can be used more. But im afraid the balance will be off with FF & Comet.

I do aware that Panther used to have higher armor, lower hp. TDs had lower pen but higher damage. Which hard to pen Panther on front but Panther will die in 3-4 hits if show its rear to TDs.

3 Feb 2020, 06:12 AM
#352
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

Some ask me what's diff between jackson and ff, after we removed jackson rof pen vet?

Ff starts much earlier with 240 tulips/snare and also tank commander sight. Ff punch harder and more accurate. Vetted Ff close in on rof and turret tracking.

Jackson still keeps its mobility and survivability.
Ff can be supported by comet or Churchill

Both with vetted Ap ammo still deals hurt to call in heavy. Vet bonus on Ap ammo still applies

P4 vetted has slight chance to bounce at max range
P5 vetted armor can scale fairly

So if we are ok with current Ff, then my suggestion to Jackson seems fair and brings both 60Td closer

No power creep also!
3 Feb 2020, 10:37 AM
#353
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 56

Jackson have RM and the best one Sherman to screen them

FF have Churchill to tank vs Heavies & Comet to mobile fight vs Panthers.

3 Feb 2020, 19:38 PM
#354
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

If Jackson is such a problem and we need to buff alternative AT options then USF either needs Sherman's "AT" rounds buff, or side upgrade (up the guns from COH1) or EZ-8 become non-doctrinal.
3 Feb 2020, 21:38 PM
#355
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8520 | Subs: 1

If Jackson is such a problem and we need to buff alternative AT options then USF either needs Sherman's "AT" rounds buff, or side upgrade (up the guns from COH1) or EZ-8 become non-doctrinal.

The M36 can be nerfed without buffing anything. USF can deal with PzIV just fine.
3 Feb 2020, 23:12 PM
#356
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15425 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Feb 2020, 21:38 PMVipper

The M36 can be nerfed without buffing anything. USF can deal with PzIV just fine.

Too bad it can't be said about PV and PVI if we exclude jackson.
3 Feb 2020, 23:25 PM
#357
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4079 | Subs: 1


Too bad it can't be said about PV and PVI if we exclude jackson.

And yet the Jackson will still be there. Soviet will be boned by the panther and tiger if we exclude the su85 too. And the brits will certainly struggle if we exclude the firefly. The issue is the Jackson can do everything WHILE ALSO being the top of its class in every single meaningful trait. No unit should be a one size fits all and the Jackson would do well tuned as a heavy tank counter instead of an every tank counter so the various other great medium AT options can see some light. We might actually see some of the other commanders for once too!
4 Feb 2020, 01:50 AM
#358
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Feb 2020, 21:38 PMVipper

The M36 can be nerfed without buffing anything. USF can deal with PzIV just fine.


Yap!

Removing m36 pen and rof vet and replace with complementary abilities like sight and stronger hvap!

This buff axis late game armor scaling without affecting much.

It still puts m36 on better footing than FF

Brumbar, p4, p5, jp4. All will get better rng bounce. Again, making meta fairer again!

BUT im sadly sure mod team won't touch m36 for reasons...
4 Feb 2020, 14:33 PM
#359
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484


And yet the Jackson will still be there. Soviet will be boned by the panther and tiger if we exclude the su85 too. And the brits will certainly struggle if we exclude the firefly. The issue is the Jackson can do everything WHILE ALSO being the top of its class in every single meaningful trait. No unit should be a one size fits all and the Jackson would do well tuned as a heavy tank counter instead of an every tank counter so the various other great medium AT options can see some light. We might actually see some of the other commanders for once too!


The problem is nobody has solid solutions to the Jackson problems. So I would rather not see drastic change to the Jackson and make USF least playable faction after the Brits buff.
4 Feb 2020, 14:43 PM
#360
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

Removing jackson vet pen and rof is a solid solution...'nobody' is generalising it.
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