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jackson armor nerf

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27 Jan 2020, 23:54 PM
#261
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15714 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 23:32 PMVipper

Yes the Panther is to counter Super heavies (but it not very good at it)

Give it 30-40 more pen across the board and increase reload by 2-3 seconds, hell it can even get accuracy boost too afterwards.
There, it now hardcounters heavies, but doesn't roflstomp mediums.
27 Jan 2020, 23:58 PM
#262
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 23:54 PMKatitof

Give it 30-40 more pen across the board and increase reload by 2-3 seconds, hell it can even get accuracy boost too afterwards.
There, it now hardcounters heavies, but doesn't roflstomp mediums.

Great, now lets do the same with allied TDs while also bringing their max range accuracy inline with the Panther's.
There, now they will hard counter heavies, but they will not roflstomp PzIVs
28 Jan 2020, 00:03 AM
#263
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15714 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 23:58 PMVipper

Great, now lets do the same with allied TDs while also bringing their max range accuracy inline with the Panther's.
There, now they will hard counter heavies, but they will not roflstomp PzIVs

Sure, now present your alternative to Jackson, because FF is already like that and soviets have SU-76, both axis factions also can't complain about lack of anti-medium TD.
28 Jan 2020, 00:13 AM
#264
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4365 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 00:03 AMKatitof

Sure, now present your alternative to Jackson, because FF is already like that and soviets have SU-76, both axis factions also can't complain about lack of anti-medium TD.

Increase sherman AP pen by 20 at all ranges and decrease its AI a bit further.
Give officers super zooks.

Probably be enough, or at least a start. Can't have the standard sherman too strong or all the dedicated AT variants will be as redundant as they are with the Jackson, but a bit higher wouldn't be too much of an issue I don't think.
28 Jan 2020, 00:19 AM
#265
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2020, 00:03 AMKatitof

Sure, now present your alternative to Jackson, because FF is already like that and soviets have SU-76, both axis factions also can't complain about lack of anti-medium TD.

The is no need for an "alternative to Jackson" the Jackson would still counter PzIV but it would not "roflstomp" as you said.
28 Jan 2020, 02:28 AM
#266
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 404 | Subs: 1



I wonder how he explains Elefant :)

"Jackson is op, but Elefant isn't ?" they have almost the same pop.



Another player who cannot understand that

1) Long Range + High Pen is fine.

2) High mobility + low cost is fine.

3) Long Range + High Pen + High mobility + low cost is not fine.

28 Jan 2020, 02:43 AM
#267
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2566 | Subs: 1

If mobility was supposed to be the design of USF, they should've gotten the hellcat stock. Would've had lower damage imo (120), fast ROF, and super quick speed, and like 560 HP

Jackson would've been slower, long reload, 60 range and still had it's higher damage and 480hp that it used to have. Keeping it specialized towards heavies

The current Jackson is just too good at everything. Still maintain that has mostly to due with the Stuart being their next strongest stock AT vehicle
28 Jan 2020, 12:54 PM
#268
avatar of steinernein

Posts: 7

I would like to ask Codguy's expert opinion on the matter.

I think having a toggle of some kind could possibly be a solution; high pen, long range but with reduced ROF versus default which is lower pen, normal rate of fire and reduced range with a four second duration before being able to switch - toggling interrupts reload etc.

28 Jan 2020, 21:30 PM
#269
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

All agree that the Jackson needs a nerf. A CLEAN NERF nothing like +5Fuel but something or buffing other USF untis .. (WTF:loco:) that realy break's this BS OP unit.


1. The Micro Tax

Like the Brum the Jackson get's a Micro Tax... so just remove his crew and popout ability.
It current Stat's stay the same but the USF Player is forced to repair it with RE or other Crew.

- no more Inf Spam in Jackons cause u need the repair to stay in Combat
- will punch as hard as now but no more instant pop out and quick Combat readiness and more "Time of the
Field"
- general more micro required to use this unit over a long time.
- More MP required to stay in combat via RE or other Crew's u have to build another Vehicle for Crew repair.

2. Range to 50

- Get it in Range of other waepons and tanks
- no more safe first strikes
- Heavy Tanks an Med can fight back while Jackson has the same Firepower
- More likely to get shots from Pak 40 and Raketen

3. nerf of pen, acc and rof

pretty simple...

4. the glascannon

reduce its Armor and Health significant.
- it shouldend be a no brainer to use this TD

pretty simple...


I think at least two of these are nessecary to realy change something

Vaz
29 Jan 2020, 11:49 AM
#270
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 932

I believe some of the people complaining of Jackson superiority are really just not using their tools well when playing as Axis. We also have some playing 1v1 and others on teams. I play more teams and most players I lose to have little trouble with Jackson. Typically they are able to outdo me in force, as anyone knows with this game and the lategame axis force. It just gets to a point where in the right hands, there is little that can be done.

Jacksons do not penetrate panther and above 100%. I've bounced 2 and 3 consecutive shots on panthers and tigers. I've bounced shells off the back of tigers.

Also, the raketen doesn't not melt against double bar rifles. It is extremely common in team games for okw players to send raketen in to heavily gaurded positions to get shots off on armor and usually they can get 2 or 3 rockets off before retreating or dying. Usually done with 2 of them, it's kind of cheap actually. I've had people send 2 raketen into range of an m2hb, shoot off the shots it needs, retreat and both survive. Allied DPS just isn't sufficient. Sending 2 57mm would be a pathetic disaster for a USF player in the same scenario. Even if an mg42 didn't kill the crew, the shots will likely bounce off the target. It just wouldn't work.

It seems like a lot of the nerf calls are getting off topic; the armor of the Jackson. It really doesn't matter if it's armor is nerfed or not. 15% chance to bounce a p4, it happens to me sometimes, but if I never saw another p4 bounce on a Jackson I really wouldn't care. I am not going to bet my match on a 15% chance, so it doesn't matter if it's 15% or 0%. It's funny though that all the complaints in here are about every stat of the jackson other than the armor.
29 Jan 2020, 12:04 PM
#271
avatar of Musti

Posts: 201

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jan 2020, 23:58 PMVipper

Great, now lets do the same with allied TDs while also bringing their max range accuracy inline with the Panther's.
There, now they will hard counter heavies, but they will not roflstomp PzIVs

Right, now we just need to boost their health to 960 armor to 260, give them blitz/flanking speed and asmoke, boost their AI levels.

Fuck it, lets just give Panthers to everyone.
29 Jan 2020, 12:07 PM
#272
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 12:04 PMMusti

Right, now we just need to boost their health to 960 armor to 260, give them blitz/flanking speed and asmoke, boost their AI levels.

Fuck it, lets just give Panthers to everyone.


Ah here are we now :D ok than double mg42 and 5 men grens... and explosive/ap shells for P4 and a crew popout with repair :clap:

29 Jan 2020, 12:36 PM
#273
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8836 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 12:04 PMMusti

Right, now we just need to boost their health to 960 armor to 260, give them blitz/flanking speed and asmoke, boost their AI levels.

Fuck it, lets just give Panthers to everyone.

You can debate your suggestion with katitof who come up with the idea. No intention of derailing a thread.
29 Jan 2020, 12:41 PM
#274
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 11:49 AMVaz
I believe some of the people complaining of Jackson superiority are really just not using their tools well when playing as Axis. We also have some playing 1v1 and others on teams. I play more teams and most players I lose to have little trouble with Jackson. Typically they are able to outdo me in force, as anyone knows with this game and the lategame axis force. It just gets to a point where in the right hands, there is little that can be done.

Jacksons do not penetrate panther and above 100%. I've bounced 2 and 3 consecutive shots on panthers and tigers. I've bounced shells off the back of tigers.

Also, the raketen doesn't not melt against double bar rifles. It is extremely common in team games for okw players to send raketen in to heavily gaurded positions to get shots off on armor and usually they can get 2 or 3 rockets off before retreating or dying. Usually done with 2 of them, it's kind of cheap actually. I've had people send 2 raketen into range of an m2hb, shoot off the shots it needs, retreat and both survive. Allied DPS just isn't sufficient. Sending 2 57mm would be a pathetic disaster for a USF player in the same scenario. Even if an mg42 didn't kill the crew, the shots will likely bounce off the target. It just wouldn't work.

It seems like a lot of the nerf calls are getting off topic; the armor of the Jackson. It really doesn't matter if it's armor is nerfed or not. 15% chance to bounce a p4, it happens to me sometimes, but if I never saw another p4 bounce on a Jackson I really wouldn't care. I am not going to bet my match on a 15% chance, so it doesn't matter if it's 15% or 0%. It's funny though that all the complaints in here are about every stat of the jackson other than the armor.


Thats the whole POINT.. why not use combiend arms as USF? NO u want the easy way...

I think that armor is not the problem, mobility is, in addition to the accuracy they have. But it is not the only factor, it happens with most TD allies, the accuracy and vision, the price and the time to get one, make them very profitable, this is especially noticeable in team games, I realized that when I play as an ally I have the vision of most of the front almost all the time (flares, global flares, su85 ability) that allows the TD to be used effectively both offensively and defensively, the Panthers are no longer a threat as before, they have good mobility, but sometimes their shots fail even being static.


Currently Jacksons are a beat-all-of-the-kind tank, it destroys lights because they are 2 shoted, they obliterate mediums because they are more reliable on the move than those and finally but not least, beat the crap out of heavies because their superior range and penetration bonuses.

Damn they are the best FU investment to deny all other FU from axis.
Pair that with a solid lategame infantry and you got 2 out of 3 main army components (infantry-armor-indirect fire), from that its a simple linear fight and steamroll over.

I admit that lategame is for allies, but unless axis spams ATGs and HMGs they are simply rolled over, generally speaking


One thing is certain, M36 dominating tank to tank wars is above comfortable, just some micro to keep it at range and thats it. This kind of "retoric" discussions of panthers vs jacksons vs heavies vs TDs are just the way this so called fanboys disrupts threads. Again you are welcome to start your own reading and realize it for yourself.


You still don't understand the stupidity of your "argument". Units have different resource costs and timings, and vacuum comparisons without considering the actual in-game context is deceptive and dishonest. USF has very little stock armour variety, but that doesn't change the fact that the Jackson is too good at the moment. In any case, you totally missed the fact that an armour nerf doesn't change the matchup of Jackson vs Panther.




In any case, your "argument" is beyond retarded. You're using "can this unit be easily penned" as the basis of your "argument" for whether the Jackson can be countered. Virtually all good players agree that the Jackson has no weakness, and is especially painful for Ostheer to deal with. Other TDs, meanwhile, all have weaknesses. Stugs have 50 range and no turret, SU76s have no turret and are horribly fragile, the Firefly's cost and RoF are criminal, SU85 and JP4 are poor-mobility casemates which can get circle strafed by anyone - even slow tanks like the Churchill or KV1 can circle-strafe a jp4. The Jackson, meanwhile is A 60 range high pen unit with high moving acc, turret rotation, and the mobility of a P4. The Jackson isn't relying on its armour to deflect King Tiger shells. It relies on the player not being a retard who engages the King Tiger in a close-range brawl.


.... and so on



idk why there is always a last allied Fanboy(Katitof:D) that cant face the realty...

60TD Meta is real and the Jackson is over perfoming(witch is a huge understatement).

Maybe u play some games as Axis and u will see it too. :thumb:

29 Jan 2020, 16:09 PM
#275
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 404 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2020, 11:49 AMVaz
I believe some of the people complaining of Jackson superiority are really just not using their tools well when playing as Axis. We also have some playing 1v1 and others on teams. I play more teams and most players I lose to have little trouble with Jackson.

Jacksons do not penetrate panther and above 100%. I've bounced 2 and 3 consecutive shots on panthers and tigers. I've bounced shells off the back of tigers.

Also, the raketen doesn't not melt against double bar rifles. It is extremely common in team games for okw players to send raketen in to heavily gaurded positions to get shots off on armor and usually they can get 2 or 3 rockets off before retreating or dying. Usually done with 2 of them, it's kind of cheap actually. I've had people send 2 raketen into range of an m2hb, shoot off the shots it needs, retreat and both survive. Allied DPS just isn't sufficient. Sending 2 57mm would be a pathetic disaster for a USF player in the same scenario. Even if an mg42 didn't kill the crew, the shots will likely bounce off the target. It just wouldn't work.

.



You're rank 900+ in 4 v 4. And your insinuation is that players who are way more skilled than you "aren't using their tools properly".

Tiger has like 140? rear armour. The chance for a Jackson to bounce a shot on Tiger's rear armour is literally ZERO PERCENT. You can't even tell the difference between rear armour and front armour, Christ.

Double BAR Rifles have more DPS than every other mainline at most ranges, and can defeat lower vet elite infantry. Raketens don't have gun shields and have 1.25 RA AND have less range than the Jackson.

I have a radical hypothesis - maybe the rank 900+ 4 v 4 player who doesn't understand half of the game mechanics is the one who "isn't using the tools properly". Most players you face off don't have trouble with your Jacksons because they are significantly more skilled than you.


Units should be balanced based on the assumption of competent play.
30 Jan 2020, 04:21 AM
#276
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 760

All agree that the Jackson needs a nerf. A CLEAN NERF nothing like +5Fuel but something or buffing other USF untis .. (WTF:loco:) that realy break's this BS OP unit.


1. The Micro Tax

Like the Brum the Jackson get's a Micro Tax... so just remove his crew and popout ability.
It current Stat's stay the same but the USF Player is forced to repair it with RE or other Crew.

- no more Inf Spam in Jackons cause u need the repair to stay in Combat
- will punch as hard as now but no more instant pop out and quick Combat readiness and more "Time of the
Field"
- general more micro required to use this unit over a long time.
- More MP required to stay in combat via RE or other Crew's u have to build another Vehicle for Crew repair.

2. Range to 50

- Get it in Range of other waepons and tanks
- no more safe first strikes
- Heavy Tanks an Med can fight back while Jackson has the same Firepower
- More likely to get shots from Pak 40 and Raketen

3. nerf of pen, acc and rof

pretty simple...

4. the glascannon

reduce its Armor and Health significant.
- it shouldend be a no brainer to use this TD

pretty simple...


I think at least two of these are nessecary to realy change something



I would like to ask Codguy's expert opinion on the matter.

I think having a toggle of some kind could possibly be a solution; high pen, long range but with reduced ROF versus default which is lower pen, normal rate of fire and reduced range with a four second duration before being able to switch - toggling interrupts reload etc.



Okay here we go:

All crying Axis players agree the Jackson needs a nerf...so what?

Explain to me why you think a 120 fuel, 340 MP (or 140 fuel for the better one) multi-use medium TANK should be able to take on a 145 fuel 400 MP single-purpose TANK DESTROYER? Get a grip.

The balance team has already seen fit to wet nurse the Axis player base by handing out HMG42s, Panzergrens, Obers, Fallschrimjagers (you know, the stuff that comes WAY too early) along with non-doctrinal heavy Armor like King Tigers and Panthers.

If the balance team wants to do that fine. But doing that while nerfing Brits into the ground and now possibly the Jackson, it would be a laughably biased move.

Some of the things I've read here recently just make me cringe. Some of you people think a Puma should counter a Jackson. Seriously, WTF?

The Jackson is the only...ONLY unit USF has outside of a doctrine that truly excels.
30 Jan 2020, 05:54 AM
#277
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2020, 04:21 AMCODGUY
All crying Axis players agree the Jackson needs a nerf...so what?

Explain to me why you think a 120 fuel, 340 MP (or 140 fuel for the better one) multi-use medium TANK should be able to take on a 145 fuel 400 MP single-purpose TANK DESTROYER? Get a grip.


1. It's pretty much everyone, not just "axis players". The mentality of "sides" (i.e. "axis players" vs "allied players") really doesn't help here - we're all trying to make the game better, since most mid/high level players play all the factions/modes. Yes, there are a few that think 'it's fine', but they're in the minority.

2. No one is asking for the OST or OKW P4 to beat the M36. The problem is that the M36 currently makes everything irrelevant, from dedicated TDs (STUG), to mediums, premium mediums, and even heavies - it beats them all with ease, when in the right hands.

This is partly because of its range (60), which means that those tanks can never actually return fire (except for the JP4, all have 50 or less range), but also because of its incredible mobility. Its faster than every axis tank in both acceleration and top speed - with the single exception being the panther, which has an ever so slightly higher top speed (but it has 10 less range). Then, on top of all that, the M36 has a 0.75 moving accuracy modifier, which makes it 50% more accurate than every axis tank in the game when moving. It also has very good base stats (that make sense), such as very high pen at all ranges (220+), high damage (160), and average reload (iirc around 9.7sec?).

And of course, it has the bonus of being a USF tank, meaning it can self-repair with its crew, force enemy vehicles to stop targeting it by jumping out, and it can help USF bypass the pop-cap.

Any one of those benefits would make it an strong unit; the problem is the combination of all three. The "downside" of the M36 is supposed to be that its a 'glass cannon', but that's irrelevant if it can't be hit 95% of the time (also it has 640hp).


The balance team has already seen fit to wet nurse the Axis player base by handing out HMG42s, Panzergrens, Obers, Fallschrimjagers (you know, the stuff that comes WAY too early) along with non-doctrinal heavy Armor like King Tigers and Panthers.

If the balance team wants to do that fine. But doing that while nerfing Brits into the ground and now possibly the Jackson, it would be a laughably biased move.


If you're having trouble with MG42s, PGrens and Obers; post some replays. I've offered many times to help look through them, since neither of these units should be a problem - and I'm sure others would help, too.

As for Falls, they've lost their faust in this test-patch, so they'll finally be reasonable. Still very powerful against infantry, but hopeless against any vehicles.

USF and Sov are currently the two strongest factions in the game, followed by OKW, with OST and UKF in 4th and 5th respectively. This is pretty evident from both player experience, as well as the recent WCS tournament.

Some of the things I've read here recently just make me cringe. Some of you people think a Puma should counter a Jackson. Seriously, WTF?


I'm assuming you're talking about my posts from several weeks ago? If so, you've misread or misunderstood them; but I'll summarize again:

The puma shouldn't counter an M36
The puma shouldn't equal an M36
The puma should be able to temporarily ward off an M36

The Jackson is the only...ONLY unit USF has outside of a doctrine that truly excels.


I don't think anyone would agree with this. USF has a bunch of incredibly strong and versatile units; and the the problem isn't that the M36 excels, its the degree to which it excels.
30 Jan 2020, 06:16 AM
#278
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

If jacksons are to be still overperforming, then lets remove the snares from riflemen.

If jacksons are actually better on the move, then lets give them room to use that "advantage"

UKF could survive 6 years without snare, USF surely can do better since its units are much better than UKF ones.
30 Jan 2020, 06:29 AM
#279
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

If jacksons are to be still overperforming, then lets remove the snares from riflemen.

If jacksons are actually better on the move, then lets give them room to use that "advantage"

UKF could survive 6 years without snare, USF surely can do better since its units are much better than UKF ones.


Removing core tools isn't a solution - UKF barely survived without them (some would say they didn't survive).

And the M36 is undisputed better on the move; simply look through the stats and you'll find no axis vehicle has a 0.75 moving multiplier.

The formula for hitting things while on the move is:
[Target Size] x [Accuracy at current range] x [moving multiplier]

So, for example, the M36 vs. Panther at max (60) range, while moving is:
24 (panther size) x 0.035 (M36 far accuracy) x 0.75 (M36 moving mult) = 63% chance to hit

For the Panther vs. M36 at max (50) range, while moving its:
24 (M36 size) x 0.035 (Panther far accuracy) x 0.5 (Panther moving mult) = 42% chance to hit
30 Jan 2020, 08:45 AM
#280
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647


Double BAR Rifles have more DPS than every other mainline at most ranges, and can defeat lower vet elite infantry. Raketens don't have gun shields and have 1.25 RA AND have less range than the Jackson.

I have a radical hypothesis - maybe the rank 900+ 4 v 4 player who doesn't understand half of the game mechanics is the one who "isn't using the tools properly". Most players you face off don't have trouble with your Jacksons because they are significantly more skilled than you.


Units should be balanced based on the assumption of competent play.


Oof. Elitist spotted.

Team games ans 1v1 are wholly different games. The issues that 4v4 players face are far more obnoxious than 1v1 gameplay.

In team games jacksons are not that much issue because heavy TD is a thing and most axis teams have at least an elefant or JT to deal with allied TD. As well as multiple panthers to soak shots and bounce some of them, the problems of jacksons are diluted, while the issues with axis armor are magnified.

The problems faced in 1v1 and 4v4s are different. Nerf jackson too much, you remove usf from team games entirely.

Unless superzooks are available non doctrinally on a unit that is ubiquitious. Then yes, jacksons can be nerfed.
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