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russian armor

jackson armor nerf

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23 Jan 2020, 10:54 AM
#181
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2042

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 10:42 AMVaz
I don't really understand why an occasional bounce from a p4 is so unbalanced. When it comes to regular tank battles, other tanks bounce shots off the p4. I've had a p4 miss, but not bounce on an allied tank. When it comes to unfair bouncing it only gets worse as you go up from p4. Axis heavier armor can double or triple their already high health with bounced shots. 57mm, m36, m4, bazooka, all frequently bounce. Axis AT can reliably 4 shot an m36, with p4 sometimes needing 5 on m36. At least with USF, I've had panthers just parked in front of a 57mm, not pay attention to the panther, bounce 4 57mm shots, then notice and move it back. The m36 still has disappearing rounds too, either it doesn't shoot out the barrel or the round disappears when it reaches the target, doing 0 damage. It's quite pathetic, so I really don't see why the p4 sometimes bouncing one shot is anything significant.


Every AT-gun/tank/whatever has disappearing rounds. It happens on all sides. Nothing limited to the M36.

The odds of a Panther bouncing 4 57mm shots in a row are 10% and that is if all shots hit front armour. And that is for a vet 0 M1 ATG without HVAP.
23 Jan 2020, 11:09 AM
#182
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 671



You forgot the extra range it gets. But I agree completely. It is so frustrating when people claim the USF AT gun is somehow bad when it is clearly the best in the anti-tank department. Guess none of them had their tanks sniped at 65 range (or whatever take aim gives, maybe even 70?) by a combination of HVAP shells and Take Aim self spotting before.

How many times do people need to point out that the USF ATG is absolutely insane when feeding it some muni. And feeding it some muni really is not a big deal considering it is currently the chepeast AT-gun in COH2. (other than soviet mini at gun)


ther is often a bit of misconception about USF AT gun back in the day. Back when jackson sucked, USF still could counter axis tanks with ther AT guns, but the problem was AT guns and bazookas was all they reliably had, so all u had to as axis was to invest in rocket arty and counter the only source of USF AT. Since, then u now have a clearly OP Jackson with other powerful AT support (which ppl refuse to accept) + many axis tanks have had ther armour reduced like the panther and KT.

Jackson should still maintain a HIGH pen, but other aspects need looking at and its about god damn time USF be made to rely more on combined arms like every other faction.
Vaz
23 Jan 2020, 11:17 AM
#183
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 923



Every AT-gun/tank/whatever has disappearing rounds. It happens on all sides. Nothing limited to the M36.

The odds of a Panther bouncing 4 57mm shots in a row are 10% and that is if all shots hit front armour. And that is for a vet 0 M1 ATG without HVAP.


I only get disappearing rounds from m36. I've not had a problem with other units of any faction.
23 Jan 2020, 11:19 AM
#184
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2042

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 11:17 AMVaz


I only get disappearing rounds from m36. I've not had a problem with other units of any faction.


I just checked your playercard and you basically play 90% USF. So maybe, just maybe, this has something to do with it??
23 Jan 2020, 11:39 AM
#185
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

In the PzIV vs M36 match the problem has more to do with chance to do damage (hit and penetrate) of the M36 even when firing at max range and on the move and less with the chance to of the PzIV to bounce occasially.

The chance of doing damage at max range while moving for a M36 firing on PzIV is simply too high and the chance of doing damage at max range while moving for a PzIV firing on M036 is simply too low.

And balance becomes even worse with veterancy.
Vaz
23 Jan 2020, 12:33 PM
#186
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 923



I just checked your playercard and you basically play 90% USF. So maybe, just maybe, this has something to do with it??


Why do you need to switch from talking about the issue to talking about me? These kinds of personal attacks are what make these discussions toxic.
23 Jan 2020, 13:04 PM
#187
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2042

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 12:33 PMVaz


Why do you need to switch from talking about the issue to talking about me? These kinds of personal attacks are what make these discussions toxic.


Because it explains your clouded judgment of only Jacksons suffering from disappearing shells when it's a thing that happens to all units in COH2.
23 Jan 2020, 13:30 PM
#188
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3961 | Subs: 1



Yeah that change was very very weird. I don't know what they thought it is going to accomplish?

Saying it was nerfed without actually having any impact with it solely to say "look we nerfed it" is the only conclusion I can draw.
23 Jan 2020, 14:30 PM
#189
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 819 | Subs: 5



Cost is a big factor, for one.

Puma 370MP 70FU.
Jackson 400MP 145FU

I don't believe a vehicle that's literally half the cost, should be able to counter. if we're re scaling costs/Performance, it wouldn't be a bad thing, i guess. Or, we could just make the M10 viable again, there would probably be less Jackson play. making the Puma a hard counter to the jackson would just push the poor soul in the dark more...
Think of the m10s!



Lst I checked the Puma was 280MP 70FU (8 pop)
Jackson 400MP 145FU (16 pop)

Did I miss something? 370 MP for Puma? What?

Maybe I'm just a few patches late?
23 Jan 2020, 14:40 PM
#190
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 56



This is not one single point, thus is honestly jumping all over the place. Comparing two factions vs one, IS2 nondoc for USF, suddenly on topic Jackson, then back to Tommy sections.
But indeed I at least did not see a comparison


Sorry for my English here. Tommy was just an example why Jackson cant be nerfed.

I dont mind Jackson gets some nerf IF there are other reliable AT option to deal with Panther & King.

If all Axis have (to be specified: OKW) only have Puma & Panther non doc (no Pz4 Jgpz4 King). No matter how OP Panther is, I will never ask to nerf Panther if USF have Wol Jack Pershing non doc, because its all they have.

Its not the units. Its the faction that LACK of unit, especially tanks vs tanks, Jackson is all USF have. Thats why even though they're OP, balance team can only price them up, not to nerf them down.
23 Jan 2020, 14:44 PM
#191
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

I dont mind Jackson gets some nerf IF there are other reliable AT option to deal with Panther & King.


This entire thread is discussing how to nerf the M36 while keeping the same performance vs heavy tanks.
23 Jan 2020, 14:51 PM
#192
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3961 | Subs: 1

I think the biggest issue is HVAP. it should be a toggle shell like the sherman HE (who, imo should be a timed shell) with distinct attributes specializing in heavy or medium armour with the opposite being vulnerable. There isn't necessarily an issue with one unit doing multiple jobs, the issue lies in doing them at the same time and with the most effectiveness of any, and also having literally any other trait you could possibly want piled into the same vehicle.... Separate modes for heavy and medium armour imo is the most basic route we could take for aligning the Jackson to a standard of balance without neutering the USF's ability to fight armour.
23 Jan 2020, 15:30 PM
#193
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

I think the biggest issue is HVAP. it should be a toggle shell like the sherman HE (who, imo should be a timed shell) with distinct attributes specializing in heavy or medium armour with the opposite being vulnerable. There isn't necessarily an issue with one unit doing multiple jobs, the issue lies in doing them at the same time and with the most effectiveness of any, and also having literally any other trait you could possibly want piled into the same vehicle.... Separate modes for heavy and medium armour imo is the most basic route we could take for aligning the Jackson to a standard of balance without neutering the USF's ability to fight armour.


You'll just make the Jackson even more OP with this solution. Or to make both modes bad vs their respective targets.



23 Jan 2020, 15:32 PM
#194
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 989 | Subs: 1



Sorry for my English here. Tommy was just an example why Jackson cant be nerfed.

I dont mind Jackson gets some nerf IF there are other reliable AT option to deal with Panther & King.

If all Axis have (to be specified: OKW) only have Puma & Panther non doc (no Pz4 Jgpz4 King). No matter how OP Panther is, I will never ask to nerf Panther if USF have Wol Jack Pershing non doc, because its all they have.

Its not the units. Its the faction that LACK of unit, especially tanks vs tanks, Jackson is all USF have. Thats why even though they're OP, balance team can only price them up, not to nerf them down.


As Stormjäger said, the proposed armor nerf won't do anything to it's performance vs heavies.
Reducing the Jackson's armor will make it more suceptible to medium and light vehicles. Against other TDs and heavies, there will literally be 0 difference due to the way armor in this game works.
23 Jan 2020, 17:09 PM
#195
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3961 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 15:30 PMEsxile


You'll just make the Jackson even more OP with this solution. Or to make both modes bad vs their respective targets.




How so? That's specifically the opposite of what the change would be to do...
23 Jan 2020, 19:34 PM
#196
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7104 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 15:30 PMEsxile


You'll just make the Jackson even more OP with this solution. Or to make both modes bad vs their respective targets.



Low accuracy + High pen + Low rof + High damage = Good against heavy armor

High accuracy + Avg Pen + Avg Rof + Normal damage = Good against mediums

There are other possibles combinations but that's just an example.
Vaz
23 Jan 2020, 20:25 PM
#197
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 923



Because it explains your clouded judgment of only Jacksons suffering from disappearing shells when it's a thing that happens to all units in COH2.


so how many non USF games do I need to play to experience this? I played a lot of soviet when the game came out, didn't have disappearing shells until USF came out. I haven't played a lot of Axis in comparison, but how many games do I need to play for my panther rounds to disappear?
23 Jan 2020, 20:35 PM
#198
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1



How so? That's specifically the opposite of what the change would be to do...




Low accuracy + High pen + Low rof + High damage = Good against heavy armor

High accuracy + Avg Pen + Avg Rof + Normal damage = Good against mediums

There are other possibles combinations but that's just an example.


You're making the Jackson being hard counter to both categories at cost of not being good vs both of them at the same time.
Today the Jackson is not good vs mediums, it is just the best option because Sherman AT sucks. I mean Stug or jpz4 are good vs mediums at cost of being casemate but stug is cheap and jpz4 has insane stats for its price.

Your solution isn't really going to solve the issue. As Ostheer you not going to have at the same time Pz4 and Pz5 (unless big game mode) so jackson will still be hard countering everything you deploy by selecting one or the other mode. As OKW, Pz4 and Pz5 will be countered by the low accuracy/High pen mode and PUMA/Jpz4 by the other one.

Don't get me wrong, as USF fanboy I'd love your idea to be implemented. But as a player seeking balance, not really :D

Imo, its better the make sherman AT being superior to what it is today and Jackson being only low acc/high pen etc.. mode
23 Jan 2020, 21:41 PM
#199
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 20:35 PMEsxile

Today the Jackson is not good vs mediums,...

What?
It is not good because it can not hit the PzIV?
Because it can not penetrate the PzIV?
Because it can not out run the PzIV?
Or because it does not out range the PzIV?
23 Jan 2020, 21:53 PM
#200
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jan 2020, 21:41 PMVipper

What?
It is not good because it can not hit the PzIV?
Because it can not penetrate the PzIV?
Because it can not out run the PzIV?
Or because it does not out range the PzIV?


Because it cost 145 fuel and does nothing else than AT. It's like saying Jagpanther is good vs sherman, you don't build a jagpanther to counter a sherman because it is cost inefficient. Building a Jackson to counter a pz4 is cost inefficient but since there is nothing else available to do the job, you build it.




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