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Allied and Axis Doctrinal Heavy Units - Where do we stand?

12 Nov 2019, 18:57 PM
#21
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827


Unlike the 300 armour of the tiger which can be felled by medium tanks right?


I was asked which of the Allied heavies is strongest. < 300 armour tanks like the Pershing or Comet can be fought with StuGs. The IS-2 demands a Panther, which is a big point in the IS-2's favour.
12 Nov 2019, 19:13 PM
#22
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 817

Is2 seems strongest as it brings the same armor as the Kt with more AI firepower(if you bring that DSKA) with no tech costs more than a medium.

All the heavy tanks are pretty worth it so I feel the tech cost/timing differentiates their performance the most.

ISU is probably the best on paper but it comes late enough that the raw power of the unit is balanced by its arrival time. The mechanized commander is pretty good overall though for countering tanks so the ISU has a lot of synergy.

Elephant and JT are meh, I'm not a believer even in team games, but I suppose thats just style. They are pretty worth vs heavies but there are a lot of ways to counter/dodge them.

Sturmtiger seems weakest b/c It's just terrible.
12 Nov 2019, 20:43 PM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3411 | Subs: 1

Nobody is building a panther to fight blobs doesn't mean the panther has no AI. I won't build a p4 to fight blobs either the point is that it CAN engage infantry if there is nothing armored to shoot at unlike even the mighty jackson. Hyperbole in this case doesn't help illustrate but instead presents a sense of bias.
12 Nov 2019, 21:12 PM
#24
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668

Nobody is building a panther to fight blobs doesn't mean the panther has no AI. I won't build a p4 to fight blobs either the point is that it CAN engage infantry if there is nothing armored to shoot at unlike even the mighty jackson. Hyperbole in this case doesn't help illustrate but instead presents a sense of bias.


Looking at the price difference and the fact that you pay extra for the pintle, most people would take Jackson for better range and crews. They mgs on panther are not worth that cost.
12 Nov 2019, 22:33 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13961 | Subs: 7



Looking at the price difference and the fact that you pay extra for the pintle, most people would take Jackson for better range and crews. They mgs on panther are not worth that cost.

These MGs give you gren squad DPS...
12 Nov 2019, 23:03 PM
#26
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 22:33 PMKatitof

These MGs give you gren squad DPS...

...which on the game stage panther appears is not much bearing in mind unit's price. Either make panther simply cheaper or buff somehow. I'd make panther more similar to comet since the cost is similar.
12 Nov 2019, 23:49 PM
#27
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 526


...which on the game stage panther appears is not much bearing in mind unit's price. Either make panther simply cheaper or buff somehow. I'd make panther more similar to comet since the cost is similar.


Can increase the AI damage profile on the gun a bit, sure. And then nerf it's HP down to 720 or so.
13 Nov 2019, 00:00 AM
#28
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3411 | Subs: 1



Looking at the price difference and the fact that you pay extra for the pintle, most people would take Jackson for better range and crews. They mgs on panther are not worth that cost.


But they are part of a package that is. You have a hybrid medium/td/heavy it's not amazing at any of these roles and out performed by the dedicated units but it is still a great blend. If you have a rifle squad capping a point and nothing but a Jackson and a panther to try and fend them off which would you send? The MG dps on the panther is part of the panther performance. I'd gladly support a buff improving the pintle dps since it is purchased but saying it has no value is over exaggerating
13 Nov 2019, 03:23 AM
#29
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 747

Pintle is pretty bad no doubt. Duskha and 50cal have overtaken this thing already.

Even the ukf tank commander provides more useful uses.

Pintle having grens dps further highlights weak Wehr infantry problem imo.
13 Nov 2019, 03:37 AM
#30
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3411 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2019, 03:23 AMmrgame2
Pintle is pretty bad no doubt. Duskha and 50cal have overtaken this thing already.

Even the ukf tank commander provides more useful uses.

Pintle having grens dps further highlights weak Wehr infantry problem imo.


To be fair though the DSHK is on all of 2 tanks iirc and both of them are doc locked, hard capped heavy armour and the mg42 it would be easier to list the tanks it's not on: command tanks.
50 cal is on all Sherman's but it's 70mu isn't it?
13 Nov 2019, 03:49 AM
#31
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 747

Yes i think 70 muni.

Any idea which stats make 50cal so deadly in killing models?
13 Nov 2019, 04:23 AM
#32
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6438 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2019, 03:49 AMmrgame2
Yes i think 70 muni.

Any idea which stats make 50cal so deadly in killing models?


Because it's red.

13 Nov 2019, 04:27 AM
#33
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668



Can increase the AI damage profile on the gun a bit, sure. And then nerf it's HP down to 720 or so.

Imo it would become some kind more worthwhile alternative to ost p4 with a bit different profile. I like the idea of less healt and betteranty inf cannon. Would also be more historically accurate.
13 Nov 2019, 04:31 AM
#34
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668



But they are part of a package that is. You have a hybrid medium/td/heavy it's not amazing at any of these roles and out performed by the dedicated units but it is still a great blend. If you have a rifle squad capping a point and nothing but a Jackson and a panther to try and fend them off which would you send? The MG dps on the panther is part of the panther performance. I'd gladly support a buff improving the pintle dps since it is purchased but saying it has no value is over exaggerating


You are right with the package. Also those mgs work somehow. Yet, overall at the price of a comet you get a very 'strange' vehicle. Close range kind of anty inf, and longer range but not long range some kind of AT. Just odd. Also rather unintuitive, which may baffle new players.

The health pool in this case just makes repairs longer, and requires an engineer to accompany it all the time. I think a better ai gun and less health would make it just more 'normal'.
13 Nov 2019, 04:47 AM
#35
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3411 | Subs: 1



You are right with the package. Also those mgs work somehow. Yet, overall at the price of a comet you get a very 'strange' vehicle. Close range kind of anty inf, and longer range but not long range some kind of AT. Just odd. Also rather unintuitive, which may baffle new players.

The health pool in this case just makes repairs longer, and requires an engineer to accompany it all the time. I think a better ai gun and less health would make it just more 'normal'.


The comet and panther are sort of on the same page. Both are kinda more for beating the shit out of regular mediums but not being helpless against infantry like TDs are. They are meant to duke it out with enemy medium tanks. Even the okw p4 is meat to the comet and the panther, lacking the utility of the comet is superior to the comet.
The lower AI of these tanks is to prevent them from entirely making their respective mediums obsolete and is necessary for balance. We've seen both of these hybrid premediums make their standard mediums see no field and that's not a good balance. They are slightly niche but still valuable assets.

Pios just got a buff to their repair speed making it easier than ever before in the history of coh to get your panther back on the field. And it's an intended feature for taking damage but not being destroyed to result in down time for your tanks...
13 Nov 2019, 05:07 AM
#36
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668



The comet and panther are sort of on the same page. Both are kinda more for beating the shit out of regular mediums but not being helpless against infantry like TDs are. They are meant to duke it out with enemy medium tanks. Even the okw p4 is meat to the comet and the panther, lacking the utility of the comet is superior to the comet.
The lower AI of these tanks is to prevent them from entirely making their respective mediums obsolete and is necessary for balance. We've seen both of these hybrid premediums make their standard mediums see no field and that's not a good balance. They are slightly niche but still valuable assets.

Generally agreed. But with UKF I often build a Cromwell add follow with Comet or Churchill at some point. They are usually backed up by a firefly. Powerful mix. Comet also deals great damage to infantry. To me crux of the problem is that panther is 'ridiculous'. Like better to ride over infantry risking a snare than just shoot at them like 'normal' tanks do. Generally UKF stock tank mix is much better to predictably deal damage and micro control.

Pios just got a buff to their repair speed making it easier than ever before in the history of coh to get your panther back on the field. And it's an intended feature for taking damage but not being destroyed to result in down time for your tanks...

I had been advocating this for years. Repair speeds being more important than most players notice. Yet, I'm not fully satisfied as pio is 200 manpower while Sov engines are only 170 - they also got the sweeper upgrade while retaining all doctrine repair options. Either pios should be made cheaper or Sov engines more expensive or Sov engines should lose the feature.

USF can still repair much faster. They should have crits removed from crews and those crit repairs should be given to all engineer units including echelons.

Whether something is intended or not I wouldn't really comment. In such games 5here are so many overlapping features that intentions tend to be far from what really happens.
13 Nov 2019, 05:51 AM
#37
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 747

I think pio got their vet1 repair buffs move into sweeper upgradeable. Do we know the vet repair still stacks on top of sweeper? Its not a major buff in terms of returning speeds, good much needed, yes. Do we know how much hp/s is repaired, same values on all tanks? Somehow i felt repairing my tiger ace take longer.

Yes i have issue with crew repair. Usf vehicle with crew repairs need to take up one more popcap.

Yes i think comet is in good spot too, contrary to some beliefs here. Maybe, just maybe reduce fuel by 10, the tank specs is pretty perfect for ukf.

Otherwise comet+firefly is potent combo. You may need to micro more than Churchill+ff, but comet gives more explosive damages.
13 Nov 2019, 06:05 AM
#38
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 747

Btw what are your all thoughts on current command panther? Seems a good idea of a unit, strip of its clothes now.

Command panzer 4 also felt weaken in providing help to wehr light units.
13 Nov 2019, 06:16 AM
#39
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3411 | Subs: 1


Generally agreed. But with UKF I often build a Cromwell add follow with Comet or Churchill at some point. They are usually backed up by a firefly. Powerful mix. Comet also deals great damage to infantry. To me crux of the problem is that panther is 'ridiculous'. Like better to ride over infantry risking a snare than just shoot at them like 'normal' tanks do. Generally UKF stock tank mix is much better to predictably deal damage and micro control.
I've been suggesting for a while that the bulk of tank AI be moved to mgs instead of cannon based so that we have more reliability across the board and such that pintle are worth thir cost, but all in all atm I feel the tank balance is mostly fine. The better the tank is at fighting tanks the worse it is at fighting infantry and the panther is the best "tank" at fighting tanks.


I had been advocating this for years. Repair speeds being more important than most players notice. Yet, I'm not fully satisfied as pio is 200 manpower while Sov engines are only 170 - they also got the sweeper upgrade while retaining all doctrine repair options. Either pios should be made cheaper or Sov engines more expensive or Sov engines should lose the feature.

USF can still repair much faster. They should have crits removed from crews and those crit repairs should be given to all engineer units including echelons.

Whether something is intended or not I wouldn't really comment. In such games 5here are so many overlapping features that intentions tend to be far from what really happens.


Your comparison of pios and CE are misguided and are only comparing 1 singular aspect of what accounts for their cost. Pios have longer vision as well as actually being a threat via close range Smgs.

Additionally that 30mp difference in cost is more than made up by the first building for teching. Getting grens and mg and pios is 50mp cheaper for Ost than getting CE, cons and an mg despite the performance of all these units being heavily skewed towards Ost in the early to mid game..

Further more pios can build Bunkers and minefields while CE just get a demo. There is much that goes into the cost of the units and 30mp isn't breaking Ost as for what pios bring over what CE bring.
All repairs were normalized. If you think that Ost has it bad imagine the exact same thing but not having armour to be able to bounce shots at any point in the game with stock armour... Either both factions get it or none of them do and it was far easier to adjust the 2 than the numerous variables of the other 3

USF vehicle crews are a faction trait, their very design was crafted with them in mind, a result being that all of their stock tanks have less armour than a p4 and getting more durable armour is a doctrinal choice.
Squishy and in need of frequent repairs (and having them) vs durable and taking time to fix. It's the standard tank vs dps kind of design in many games. But the grass is always greener I suppose...
13 Nov 2019, 08:08 AM
#40
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 668

I've been suggesting for a while that the bulk of tank AI be moved to mgs instead of cannon based so that we have more reliability across the board and such that pintle are worth thir cost, but all in all atm I feel the tank balance is mostly fine. The better the tank is at fighting tanks the worse it is at fighting infantry and the panther is the best "tank" at fighting tanks.


Well, although I agree with you logics to some exted here, I can't agree with its result. Firstly, cannons should deal with infantry well as this is thw whole point of a tank, and mgs are too close range and make tanks too likely to get snared. A snared tank is most often a dead tank, especially when you don't have crew crit repairs. So a big no for mgs dealing infantry damage instead of a cannon.

Secondly, panther is not the best tank to fight tanks. Especially if you look at how much tech and manpower and fuel is involved here. Jackson is simply much better. The whole 'tank' category You created is artificial. I don't want to repeat what was written above, but panther is a curious amalgam of contradictory features, which makes it rather more like one of Hobbart's funnies that a premium medium and a wehrmaht replacement for panzer 4. The reason it is far from being best is that it will always have to close in into At fire of many at units to shoot (60 vs 50 range) and its armour and health pool will be deleted very quickly. Then it will need an expensive squad to repair it (God forbids you have other tanks that the same pio will have to repair). It only works when you are way ahead of your opponent and his army composition is just bad.



Your comparison of pios and CE are misguided and are only comparing 1 singular aspect of what accounts for their cost. Pios have longer vision as well as actually being a threat via close range Smgs.

Additionally that 30mp difference in cost is more than made up by the first building for teching. Getting grens and mg and pios is 50mp cheaper for Ost than getting CE, cons and an mg despite the performance of all these units being heavily skewed towards Ost in the early to mid game..

Further more pios can build Bunkers and minefields while CE just get a demo. There is much that goes into the cost of the units and 30mp isn't breaking Ost as for what pios bring over what CE bring.
All repairs were normalized. If you think that Ost has it bad imagine the exact same thing but not having armour to be able to bounce shots at any point in the game with stock armour... Either both factions get it or none of them do and it was far easier to adjust the 2 than the numerous variables of the other 3

USF vehicle crews are a faction trait, their very design was crafted with them in mind, a result being that all of their stock tanks have less armour than a p4 and getting more durable armour is a doctrinal choice.
Squishy and in need of frequent repairs (and having them) vs durable and taking time to fix. It's the standard tank vs dps kind of design in many games. But the grass is always greener I suppose...


Overcomplicating things is sometimes not good. 30 manpower is just more. If they die it is cheaper to quickly build more of them, especially if you have more tanks on the field. The story about grass just doesn't make sense as I play all armies, including Soviets and playing ostheer is the most difficult. I keep pinpointing why that is the case. Most of the stuff you repeat are myths. Crews are a great idea but made the game almost impossible to balance. Initially USF tanks were really squishy - thy had crews, accuracy on the move, stock smoke, crite repairs, etc instead. Players complained and their raw stats got buffed - quite sensibly. But this made, for example, sherman a good opponent to ostheer panzer 4 - especially if you look at the price difference. Crews and all other abilities remained and it is sometimes ridiculous to pay 200 manpower for a pio and look how a jackson can be crit repaired without any additional costs.
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