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Allied and Axis Doctrinal Heavy Units - Where do we stand?

11 Nov 2019, 21:30 PM
#1
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 607

Curious where coh2.org stands on this so here are the questions I have after these last two patchs this year, I guess we could include some technically non-doc heavies too:

Which Allied heavy vehicle is the most effective and difficult to counter as Axis?

Pershing?
IS2?
KV2?
ISU-152?
Churchill Crocodile?
Churchill AVRE?

What about for Axis factions, which heavy is the most effective available to them now?

Tiger?
Tiger Ace?
King Tiger?
Jagtiger?
Strum Tiger?
Elefant?

Then there are sort of non-doc medium-heavies where you can build more than one not sure where they would stand:

Standard Churchill
Comet
Panther
11 Nov 2019, 21:38 PM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 1197

Pershing = Very good but situational
IS2 = faction crutch
KV2 = very good
ISU 152 = fantastic for teamgames, not so much 1v1
Croc = fantastic
Avre = Fantastic

Tiger = Great
Tiger ace = great +1
Königstiger = Amazing
Jagdtiger = meh, teamgame situational
Elephant = meh, teamgame situational
Sturmtiger = UP

Churchill = good
Comet = Great
Panther = good but situational
11 Nov 2019, 22:37 PM
#3
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 594

This is somewhat hard to answer with a single "good" or "bad", since some units are MUCH stronger (or weaker) in team-games than compared to 1v1s. I'll try to split it as (1v1&2v2) / (3v3&4v4), since that'll probably give a more accurate depiction.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Nov 2019, 21:30 PMCODGUY
Which Allied heavy vehicle is the most effective and difficult to counter as Axis?


Pershing: Great / Average
Great in 1v1/2v2, especially if your opponent isn't fielding a ton of AT. Average in 3v3/4v4, since its low armor/HP won't let it sit in combat for very long - but it does do a lot of damage against infantry, so that's a plus.

IS-2: Great / Good
Same as the Pershing, except with more armor/HP, but less AI power.

KV-2: Good / Good
Very situational. It can either be amazing if your opponent is blobing infantry, or pretty useless if they have any decent AT or are micro'ing their infantry well.

ISU-152: Good / Great
Decent in smaller games, but incredible in bigger ones. It has the ability to snipe/1-shot smaller axis squads from a good distance, and also has strong AT power. In smaller games it's only held back by its cost, where it might be better to just get SU-85s for AT and some T34s for AI.

Churchill Crocodile: Great / Great
Does a ton of AI damage at good range, has incredibly high front and rear armor, and a very high HP pool. Even if your opponent has a ton of AT, this thing is still really strong.

Churchill AVRE: Good / Good
Very situational, but it CAN be good. Unlike the ST, it actually hits where you want, so it can be very effective when used correctly. Downside is that it's still pretty slow, and doesn't have a ton of range. It's fairly easy to dodge as well.

What about for Axis factions, which heavy is the most effective available to them now?


Tiger: Great / Good
It's like a Pershing but better. It's got 240 more HP and 30 more rear armor, in exchange for SLIGHTLY worse AT/AI damage, but a faster reload speed. Only downside is in team games it becomes pretty much irrelevant against M36 spam.

Tiger Ace: Great / Good
It's a Tiger+. Still the same strengths, still the same weaknesses.

King Tiger: Great / Average
Quite a game changer in smaller games, simply due to it's high HP/Armor, and great AT/AI power. It can be a bad pick against M36s, but its great against everything else. In bigger team games, its low speed is a real problem, so it's rarely seen in "higher rank" games because of that (easy to beat with M36 spam).

Jagtiger: Good / Great
Very expensive and high pop, only good against tanks (unless you can use the barrage ability well), also exceedingly slow. In big team games it can be amazing, since it'll likely be well defended from flanking and can simply sit at max range dishing out damage. In 1v1/2v2, it's too expensive to be viable outside of rare situations; but in those rare situations it can be exceedingly powerful.

Strum Tiger: Bad / Bad
Like the AVRE but worse in every possible way: the rockets often hit the ground in front of your target, doing no damage, it slows down when reloading, it has no turret, AND the firing animation is longer/more obvious. Simply not worth the price in any way, and so ineffective that I'd consider it "bugged".

Elefant: Good / Great
Like the JT, but with the addition of self-spotting thanks to spotting scopes, but at the loss of some frontal armor/HP, as well as range.

Then there are sort of non-doc medium-heavies where you can build more than one not sure where they would stand:


Standard Churchill: Great / Good
It doesn't deal a ton of damage, but enough that its still a threat, while having absurd HP/Armor for a non-doc.

Comet: Average / Bad
Almost no one uses this thing for a reason. In big team games its basically invalid due to high amounts of AT. In 1v1 or 2v2 it can be strong, but there are better things to spend your resources on.

Panther: Great / Good
A fantastic AT-only vehicle; very effective in every type of game, UNLESS your opponent is spamming M36s, in which case STuGs are a far better / more cost effective choice.
12 Nov 2019, 00:04 AM
#4
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1774

I find the bias on the questions very uncomfortable, why OP ask best Axis tanks and hardest to fight allied tanks? Is allied oppinion less woth?
MMX
12 Nov 2019, 01:14 AM
#5
avatar of MMX

Posts: 72

I find the bias on the questions very uncomfortable, why OP ask best Axis tanks and hardest to fight allied tanks? Is allied oppinion less woth?


not sure what you're on about, i'd say the op's question isn't biased in any way at all, especially if you're inclined to apply the usual codguy metric here.

i agree with the majority of the 1v1 assertions made, can't say much about teamgames though. the sturmtiger is in a very poor state indeed and mostly serves as a giant paperweight, regardless of gamemode
12 Nov 2019, 01:48 AM
#6
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 747

No mention of command panther? Lol the nerf bat hits hard.

Imo 1v1 good
Pershing, is2, kv tanks, Churchills, tigers. Pershing > tiger because of its speed and target size here. Ace has more survivability and in good docs, but very expensive, am split to put in 1v1 or below.. probably for low level player like me, i cant hold out until ace

Rest 2v2 and above is needed. Yes even panthers. Sorry its AI suck(but but pintle), too expensive to build an only AT unit which nondoc hard counters against it are aplenty now. Its a good unit in team game with carries.

Elefant and JT are also more situational, needs to be in laney maps since they get flank too easily. Isu, since it also deals AI, it is more useful to spend the resources even in non laney maps even in 2v2.
12 Nov 2019, 04:34 AM
#7
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1774

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 01:14 AMMMX


not sure what you're on about, i'd say the op's question isn't biased in any way at all, especially if you're inclined to apply the usual codguy metric here.

well said, but my point is, why OP is not asking which are the best allied heavy tanks? Its a greener grass on the other side bias im smelling.


12 Nov 2019, 04:46 AM
#8
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3404 | Subs: 1

A thing to remember, aside from the ST axis heavies are all geared around tank combat primarily*, and allied heavies seem to be AI/ taking a beating. The current YD meta certainly make axis heavies feel underwhelming because they are supposed to prey on numerous allied mediums that just are not there in the numbers balance is tuned for. It's difficult to create a tier list when they are all designed to operate differently. Except the sturmtiger. The sturm tiger is hit garbage and if it was Removed and something else put in that beauty of a commander I don't think anyone would mind.

*you don't have the likes of the Pershing or the various Soviet high aoe units. Generally you have high pen/ ROF.
12 Nov 2019, 08:37 AM
#9
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 526

So many people mentioning the Tiger ace and forgetting it gets MG suppression with Spearhead activated. That alone makes it the most frustrating HT to fight against imo, but then I haven't actually had to fight it ever since the CP reversion.
12 Nov 2019, 09:05 AM
#10
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

in which game mode is a KT Amazing? It gets counterd by a single allie TD easily
12 Nov 2019, 09:16 AM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13954 | Subs: 7

in which game mode is a KT Amazing? It gets counterd by a single allie TD easily

In the ones where you use it to support your army, not as your army.
12 Nov 2019, 09:26 AM
#12
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 09:16 AMKatitof

In the ones where you use it to support your army, not as your army.


my experience is: unless you have the right commander ( with panzer commander) you can provide better support with a panther and a p4...in every situation.

most fight are like this: KT roll to the front..first TDs see him and he shot maybe 1-2 times and most back to repair .

this isnt efficient. KT is to slow and has to slow turret speed.

12 Nov 2019, 09:33 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13954 | Subs: 7



my experience is: unless you have the right commander ( with panzer commander) you can provide better support with a panther and a p4...in every situation.

most fight are like this: KT roll to the front..first TDs see him and he shot maybe 1-2 times and most back to repair .

this isnt efficient. KT is to slow and has to slow turret speed.



Where is JP4 to keep these TDs not being able to do anything?
12 Nov 2019, 09:56 AM
#14
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 09:33 AMKatitof


Where is JP4 to keep these TDs not being able to do anything?

a KT and jp4 is a huge amount resources for comparison a panther + p4 which have better results in every case.

KT needs alone 280fuel + 3 Trucks and 140 fuel for a jp4
vs

185 panther and 135 fuel P4 + 2 trucks


p4 and panther has alot more mobiltys and can flank and have overall more dps vs Armor and AI...get heat shells and P4 is a ably to penetrate even heavys
12 Nov 2019, 10:02 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13954 | Subs: 7


p4 and panther has alot more mobiltys and can flank and have overall more dps vs Armor and AI...get heat shells and P4 is a ably to penetrate even heavys


And according to your logic, is even more susceptible to allied TDs, because now there is less armor for a bounce chance, less health to tank shots and no way to shoot back.

According to you and others in the panther/allied TD thread, panther can't counter any allied TD, because they are always at greater range and always protected perfectly from all sides.

So again, using your logic, what's smarter?
Getting 2 cheaper units that are always at disadvantage or getting 2 more expensive ones that actually fight back?
12 Nov 2019, 10:12 AM
#16
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1824

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 10:02 AMKatitof


And according to your logic, is even more susceptible to allied TDs, because now there is less armor for a bounce chance, less health to tank shots and no way to shoot back.

According to you and others in the panther/allied TD thread, panther can't counter any allied TD, because they are always at greater range and always protected perfectly from all sides.

So again, using your logic, what's smarter?
Getting 2 cheaper units that are always at disadvantage or getting 2 more expensive ones that actually fight back?


even kt and jp has no chance vs allie TDs when both players spend the same resources. 2 allie TD hold back JP4. and allie players can even get a good AI unit than.

what works is KT with ele/ jtiger and a good spoter
12 Nov 2019, 10:32 AM
#17
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1592




Pershing: Great / Average
Great in 1v1/2v2, especially if your opponent isn't fielding a ton of AT. Average in 3v3/4v4, since its low armor/HP won't let it sit in combat for very long - but it does do a lot of damage against infantry, so that's a plus.

IS-2: Great / Good
Same as the Pershing, except with more armor/HP, but less AI power.

KV-2: Good / Good
Very situational. It can either be amazing if your opponent is blobing infantry, or pretty useless if they have any decent AT or are micro'ing their infantry well.

ISU-152: Good / Great
Decent in smaller games, but incredible in bigger ones. It has the ability to snipe/1-shot smaller axis squads from a good distance, and also has strong AT power. In smaller games it's only held back by its cost, where it might be better to just get SU-85s for AT and some T34s for AI.

Churchill Crocodile: Great / Great
Does a ton of AI damage at good range, has incredibly high front and rear armor, and a very high HP pool. Even if your opponent has a ton of AT, this thing is still really strong.

Churchill AVRE: Good / Good
Very situational, but it CAN be good. Unlike the ST, it actually hits where you want, so it can be very effective when used correctly. Downside is that it's still pretty slow, and doesn't have a ton of range. It's fairly easy to dodge as well.



Tiger: Great / Good
It's like a Pershing but better. It's got 240 more HP and 30 more rear armor, in exchange for SLIGHTLY worse AT/AI damage, but a faster reload speed. Only downside is in team games it becomes pretty much irrelevant against M36 spam.

Tiger Ace: Great / Good
It's a Tiger+. Still the same strengths, still the same weaknesses.

King Tiger: Great / Average
Quite a game changer in smaller games, simply due to it's high HP/Armor, and great AT/AI power. It can be a bad pick against M36s, but its great against everything else. In bigger team games, its low speed is a real problem, so it's rarely seen in "higher rank" games because of that (easy to beat with M36 spam).

Jagtiger: Good / Great
Very expensive and high pop, only good against tanks (unless you can use the barrage ability well), also exceedingly slow. In big team games it can be amazing, since it'll likely be well defended from flanking and can simply sit at max range dishing out damage. In 1v1/2v2, it's too expensive to be viable outside of rare situations; but in those rare situations it can be exceedingly powerful.

Strum Tiger: Bad / Bad
Like the AVRE but worse in every possible way: the rockets often hit the ground in front of your target, doing no damage, it slows down when reloading, it has no turret, AND the firing animation is longer/more obvious. Simply not worth the price in any way, and so ineffective that I'd consider it "bugged".

Elefant: Good / Great
Like the JT, but with the addition of self-spotting thanks to spotting scopes, but at the loss of some frontal armor/HP, as well as range.



Standard Churchill: Great / Good
It doesn't deal a ton of damage, but enough that its still a threat, while having absurd HP/Armor for a non-doc.

Comet: Average / Bad
Almost no one uses this thing for a reason. In big team games its basically invalid due to high amounts of AT. In 1v1 or 2v2 it can be strong, but there are better things to spend your resources on.

Panther: Great / Good
A fantastic AT-only vehicle; very effective in every type of game, UNLESS your opponent is spamming M36s, in which case STuGs are a far better / more cost effective choice.


So much wrong here.

- JT and Ele have the same range now
- Churchill has 240 frontal armour, which is almost the same as OKW P4 and Ost vet 2 P4. Which is not much, it's just the HP that allows the normal Churchill to stay in fights.
- Crocodile and AVRE have 290 frontal armour, not "extremely" high by any means.
- Panther is not AT-only
- Comet is used a lot now and isn't bad at all. Only problem it has is that it's still slightly too expensive IMO.
- AVRE also misses when there is elevation, just like ST. It's still way better because of mobility
though
12 Nov 2019, 12:17 PM
#18
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2827

If you take cost-effectiveness into account, it's the Tiger and the IS-2.

The Tiger is a better Panther with really strong anti-infantry capability.

The IS-2 has 375 armour, which essentially forces a Panther or doctrinal heavy in response.
12 Nov 2019, 18:21 PM
#19
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3404 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2019, 12:17 PMLago


The IS-2 has 375 armour, which essentially forces a Panther or doctrinal heavy in response.

Unlike the 300 armour of the tiger which can be felled by medium tanks right?
12 Nov 2019, 18:57 PM
#20
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 594

So much wrong here.

- JT and Ele have the same range now
- Churchill has 240 frontal armour, which is almost the same as OKW P4 and Ost vet 2 P4. Which is not much, it's just the HP that allows the normal Churchill to stay in fights.
- Crocodile and AVRE have 290 frontal armour, not "extremely" high by any means.
- Panther is not AT-only
- Comet is used a lot now and isn't bad at all. Only problem it has is that it's still slightly too expensive IMO.
- AVRE also misses when there is elevation, just like ST. It's still way better because of mobility
though


Not really that much "wrong" here. Only one stat was out of date.

1. Valid - that's on me, but someone really needs to make an up-to-date stat website. Going through the patch-notes every single time is exhausting.

2. Them emphasis is that it has high front AND rear armor. 240 front isn't anything incredible, that's true, but 180 rear is around 25% more than any other unit. I also mention the high HP pool being a major factor in its survivability.

3. Again, the important thing was that it's high for the front AND rear. Also, 290 is only 10 less than a Tiger.

4. No one is building a panther to counter infantry blobs.

5. I haven't seen a comet more than 2-3 times in the last 4 or so months. 480mp/175f simply isn't worth it, compared to FFs for AT and/or Cromwell/Churchills for AI.

6. The arc on the AVRE is much, much higher than the ST. It can still "miss", but it's so much less likely. Late-game the ST is essentially unusable since the rocket always hits craters between it and the target. Any slight hill will do the same thing, too.


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