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Allied and Axis Doctrinal Heavy Units - Where do we stand?

17 Nov 2019, 15:08 PM
#61
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

Pios are 200 because they've got better guns and extra LOS.

If you took their buffed guns away and gave them normal infantry LOS, they probably wouldn't be worth 200.
17 Nov 2019, 15:11 PM
#62
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2019, 15:08 PMLago
Pios are 200 because they've got better guns and extra LOS.

If you took their buffed guns away and gave them normal infantry LOS, they probably wouldn't be worth 200.


IMO it works fine at the beginning of the game. Late game, with more tanks around to repair, they seem too expensive. Repair bunker should be allowed imo.
17 Nov 2019, 15:16 PM
#63
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

IMO it works fine at the beginning of the game. Late game, with more tanks around to repair, they seem too expensive. Repair bunker should be allowed imo.


It's a whole 30 manpower for the second squad. It's hardly game-changing.

The reason Ostheer has a hard time repairing is because it's got next to no nondoctrinal repair abilities. Cheaper Pios won't change that.
17 Nov 2019, 15:58 PM
#64
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Nov 2019, 15:16 PMLago


It's a whole 30 manpower for the second squad. It's hardly game-changing.

The reason Ostheer has a hard time repairing is because it's got next to no nondoctrinal repair abilities. Cheaper Pios won't change that.


True - that is why I believe a repair bunker for 150mp and 50muni (just like in coh1) could help here.
17 Nov 2019, 19:13 PM
#65
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 370

*sorry to reply like this but some glitch does not let my use reply option

And their time is longer as they have more healthpoints. We agree here. But if your opponent pays less for the repairing unit, and gets many more repair options imbalance is created, which leads to shorter periods of tank support on one side. The more tanks on the field, the greater the difference.

The regeneration speed of vehicles' helthpoints is the same. If a vehicle has more of them it will take longer to repair and it is ok. What is not ok is that USF, for example, will replenish healthpoints much more quickly using crews and echelons together, for example.

But this is balanced by their price. Repair speeds have nothing to do with that. Initially, allied tanks were inferior and this was offset by the crews or some more repair options. Now tanks are to a large extend similar, a bit different assymetricall, but repair speeds have been adjusted only a bit.

It is really hard to discuss things as You keep mixing so many issues together. I agree that the game is about lots of interleaving units and abilities and timings and costs etc, but it is just impossible to throw so many things into a discussion about heavy tanks. I will try to reply, though.

Ost cannot reinforce anywhere on the field unless you pay for it and, because of it, will have fewer squads on the field - very risky if you are playing against smb your level as such static positions are easily countered. Even when you pay for reinforcement structure/unit you still have to pay for reinforcing. You also have to add the cost of healing or resign from it when far away from the base. Generally, a merge is a much better solution as you get it for free and works everywhere on the map. I gave you an example with reinforcing engineers by conscripts and not needing to retreat before you repair with full speed. Not much to add, really. If you don't understand it I connot do much. To sum up, repairing for soviets is simply cheaper (CE cost) and faster (doctrines). It affects all tanks, not only heavies. USF repair speeds are the fastest and UKF can also get very effective engineers plus abilities similar to SOV. IMO it should be addressed by adjustments to the cost of CE and pios or by allowing ostheer some other repair option - I'd go for stock coh1 repair bunker (150manpower+50 munitions upgrade)


What you wrote is just so wrong. Basically You should try and play ostheer. Really - you will see from other Soviet players how useful cons can be with sandbags, tripflares, hoorah, molotovs, at nades, and 7 men. You seem to be totally missing all their strengths (including the strength of a molotov's ability to deny cover, etc.) To the topic - heavy tank play largely depends on their ability to regain hp. It is much easier to regain healhpoints for allies. We shouldn't toy with heavy tanks stats, but first make sure that factions have similar (cost/effectiveness) methods of repairing such tanks. To begin with, I'd add a repair bunker for ost.



The overall preformance outside of their repair abilities have everything to do with how quick a tank can get back in the fight.
The soviets CE is the weakest in all other areas except repair. on that front its on par with the rest. The PIO,S while repairing will see an incoming threat to the damaged tank they are repairing sooner. Thus giving a better chance to get the tank out or let other at sources force it off. this is a reason why the CE is justly cheaper.

Ost next to having better overal engineer has better AT and more option doctrinal and nondoc to avoid damage up until the SU85 is deployed.
yes their option to heal and reinforce on the field do cost you recourses. i never said that it didnt. and ofcourse it means less squads on the field but reinforcing and healing on the field is never to be underestimated or ingnored because people tend not to use it because your investment can be countered. The side tech for cons and merging all the time does the same, it still costs you mp and lots of it if used often. Cons can easely be lost during merge. and merge aint free you need to replace the models and or the squad after a merge, its not that the models magicly respawn for free after x seconds. You need to play some soviet it seems.

Soviets have lots of repair options including the doctrinal ones. Because they lack a lot of options to avoid damage. all their stock armour is penned with ease they lack smoke options unlike ost and okw armour does. Their vet doesnt increase their durability in the slightest, the CE,s are mostly rubbish in combat outside the flamer, they dont have extra sight or can they dual equip or put their sweeper away or get AT weapon upgrade.

i,ve said my piece about the CE and their cost to preformance ratio. feels like i am talking to wall on this subject. There is no reason to increase the cost of CE,s just because they repair at the same pace as other engies do.

I never said cons are weak up or usseles. i think cons are finaly golden, they have never been better in fact. I said cons are cheaper to reinforce for the reason of low dps per indevidual model. Furhtermore they are actualy pretty expensive inf compared to others to get them at their max potential. Just as they have a very high micro tax as well to be at peak preformance compared to others.
Also back to heavy tank repairing. its still easier for axis to pen anything allies can field except the IS2. this is a reason they get back on the field faster. Axis have better chances to bounce and more options to avoid damage esp then soviets, while also having a lot more acces to their heavies. there is no denying this fact.
For however slighty more costeffecient allies can repair their tanks they tend to loose their tanks slightly more often then axis do. its called balance.

Ost has repair station doctrinaly now just as soviets do, ost has blitz/extra hp and armour with vet/pznr smoke/smoke strafe (to avoid damage and help escape) sov can get to do crew repairs and can ram (for 300mp 100F)to secure a kill. Thats some more balance.
17 Nov 2019, 20:26 PM
#66
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663




The overall preformance outside of their repair abilities have everything to do with how quick a tank can get back in the fight.
The soviets CE is the weakest in all other areas except repair. on that front its on par with the rest. The PIO,S while repairing will see an incoming threat to the damaged tank they are repairing sooner. Thus giving a better chance to get the tank out or let other at sources force it off. this is a reason why the CE is justly cheaper.

Ost next to having better overal engineer has better AT and more option doctrinal and nondoc to avoid damage up until the SU85 is deployed.
yes their option to heal and reinforce on the field do cost you recourses. i never said that it didnt. and ofcourse it means less squads on the field but reinforcing and healing on the field is never to be underestimated or ingnored because people tend not to use it because your investment can be countered. The side tech for cons and merging all the time does the same, it still costs you mp and lots of it if used often. Cons can easely be lost during merge. and merge aint free you need to replace the models and or the squad after a merge, its not that the models magicly respawn for free after x seconds. You need to play some soviet it seems.

Soviets have lots of repair options including the doctrinal ones. Because they lack a lot of options to avoid damage. all their stock armour is penned with ease they lack smoke options unlike ost and okw armour does. Their vet doesnt increase their durability in the slightest, the CE,s are mostly rubbish in combat outside the flamer, they dont have extra sight or can they dual equip or put their sweeper away or get AT weapon upgrade.

i,ve said my piece about the CE and their cost to preformance ratio. feels like i am talking to wall on this subject. There is no reason to increase the cost of CE,s just because they repair at the same pace as other engies do.

I never said cons are weak up or usseles. i think cons are finaly golden, they have never been better in fact. I said cons are cheaper to reinforce for the reason of low dps per indevidual model. Furhtermore they are actualy pretty expensive inf compared to others to get them at their max potential. Just as they have a very high micro tax as well to be at peak preformance compared to others.
Also back to heavy tank repairing. its still easier for axis to pen anything allies can field except the IS2. this is a reason they get back on the field faster. Axis have better chances to bounce and more options to avoid damage esp then soviets, while also having a lot more acces to their heavies. there is no denying this fact.
For however slighty more costeffecient allies can repair their tanks they tend to loose their tanks slightly more often then axis do. its called balance.

Ost has repair station doctrinaly now just as soviets do, ost has blitz/extra hp and armour with vet/pznr smoke/smoke strafe (to avoid damage and help escape) sov can get to do crew repairs and can ram (for 300mp 100F)to secure a kill. Thats some more balance.


It is very difficult to repond to all of this. I simply don't agree with most of the stuff You write about how soviets are inferior. They are very strong imo. Remember that you can't mix ostheer with OKW as these are two completely different armies. We''l simply have to disagree. Back to the topic of the thread: repair speeds of ostheer are the slowest, next there is OKW with very expensive repair unit. Soviets and UK are faster and sov repair more cheaply, while USF is the best at it. It affects the use of heavy tanks largely - silmilarly to healing for infantry. Imagine that one faction has limited, much inferior and more expensive healing.
17 Nov 2019, 21:11 PM
#67
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 370



It is very difficult to repond to all of this. I simply don't agree with most of the stuff You write about how soviets are inferior. They are very strong imo. Remember that you can't mix ostheer with OKW as these are two completely different armies. We''l simply have to disagree. Back to the topic of the thread: repair speeds of ostheer are the slowest, next there is OKW with very expensive repair unit. Soviets and UK are faster and sov repair more cheaply, while USF is the best at it. It affects the use of heavy tanks largely - silmilarly to healing for infantry. Imagine that one faction has limited, much inferior and more expensive healing.


I am not saying infirior. I never did. I am saying siviets have other ways to make up for things they are less good at. Such as not having the best tanks preformance wise. They are cheaper. Repairing them cheaper non doc or via doctrines. I never said or meant to say soviets are infirior. All this time i am saying ost has x then sov has y as balance.

Soviets having lower hp tanks in general get repaired quicker. That is balanced against ost having better options to avoid damage. Its that simple. I am not writing in riddles here, i dont know how much clearer i need to be to get through.
17 Nov 2019, 21:52 PM
#68
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



I am not saying infirior. I never did. I am saying siviets have other ways to make up for things they are less good at. Such as not having the best tanks preformance wise. They are cheaper. Repairing them cheaper non doc or via doctrines. I never said or meant to say soviets are infirior. All this time i am saying ost has x then sov has y as balance.

Soviets having lower hp tanks in general get repaired quicker. That is balanced against ost having better options to avoid damage. Its that simple. I am not writing in riddles here, i dont know how much clearer i need to be to get through.


What You wrote just now is so much clearer :) Well, I believe that ostheer should have slightly cheaper or more effective ways to repair tanks as it is really inferior in this respect. Mostly because of cheaper and mergeable engineers as well as because of all doctrinal repair options. I can't agree that soviet tanks are worse than ostheer's. I also believe that repair potential of all factions should be reviewed.
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