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russian armor

HMG Explosive Vulnerability

28 Oct 2019, 16:38 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

The nerfs to indirect fire did an excellent job of stopping mortars being an all-powerful bleed and wipe tool.

However, they also weakened the mortar against the unit it's meant to counter: the HMG.

What do people think of putting an Obersoldaten-esque explosive damage malus on weapon teams (excluding the ATG because of the blast shield) so they're more vulnerable to mortar fire?

That'd help the now somewhat off-meta mortar fill its intended role without returning it to its prior undesirable state.
28 Oct 2019, 16:45 PM
#2
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 879

Weakness by modifiers is a terrible idea, reminiscent of Age of Empires era RTSs where unit x countered unit y just by doing more damage to it and taking less damage from it.

Mortars should be adjusted, in a more elegant manner.
28 Oct 2019, 16:48 PM
#3
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 455

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2019, 16:38 PMLago
The nerfs to indirect fire did an excellent job of stopping mortars being an all-powerful bleed and wipe tool.

However, they also weakened the mortar against the unit it's meant to counter: the HMG.

What do people think of putting an Obersoldaten-esque explosive damage malus on weapon teams (excluding the ATG because of the blast shield) so they're more vulnerable to mortar fire?

That'd help the now somewhat off-meta mortar fill its intended role without returning it to its prior undesirable state.


Yes please. Alternatively increase the AOE of most indirect weapons and lower the effective minimum damage, so that indirect weapons will nearly always be applying at least some splash damage with near misses. (Let's say 10-16 damage min. Maybe even 8. Total AOE size doubled or near-doubled.)

Just posted about mortars in another thread and was about to make a thread on the unreliability of indirect overall what with the recent 120mm thread. Thanks for making one instead.
28 Oct 2019, 16:50 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

Weakness by modifiers is a terrible idea, reminiscent of Age of Empires era RTSs where unit x countered unit y just by doing more damage to it and taking less damage from it.

Mortars should be adjusted, in a more elegant manner.


The game's already full of them. It's how they got Guards to work without their PTRSes decapitating infantry in one shot.
28 Oct 2019, 17:03 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

There are plenty of solution for that:
Lower the times before giving the order and delivering smoke

Lower the penalties vs cover/garrison since mortars should be a counter to static play

Improve barrage performance vs cover and garrison with lower penalties

Damage could be reduce to 60 improve the AOE profile and add extra damage vs team weapons

A similar path can be taken with the sniper with lower damage infatry and critical kills vs team weapons.
28 Oct 2019, 17:16 PM
#6
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

just make the mortar barrage better, it will not impact infantry unless u are a noob and camp
28 Oct 2019, 17:18 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2720

just make the mortar barrage better, it will not impact infantry unless u are a noob and camp


I disagree, cover play's something to be encouraged. Forcing infantry to be on the move all the time advantages CQC infantry even further and is counterproductive to discouraging blobbing.
28 Oct 2019, 17:23 PM
#8
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

Doesnt make sense? This will further nerf Wehr already weaken combine arms play. Considering Allies fast packup and 6 man survivability and even on field reinforcement.

I would love to counter allies HMG with mortar by this suggestion but no, it will affect Wehr more.
28 Oct 2019, 17:27 PM
#9
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2019, 17:18 PMLago


I disagree, cover play's something to be encouraged. Forcing infantry to be on the move all the time advantages CQC infantry even further and is counterproductive to discouraging blobbing.

Agreed with Stug Life, mortar is a tool that should be used vs static infantry or team weapons. Denying enemy cover with mortar barrage makes sense and is part of combined arms synergy.

Imho reduce the barrage scatter on the 2nd and the following shots. 1st shot can be as is now, if enemy decides not to move his HMG, he will suffer from the consequences of the following mortar barrage shots being more precise.

Players should be encouraged to use barrage over autofire, barrage cooldown reduction could help a bit too.
28 Oct 2019, 17:39 PM
#10
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 455


Agreed with Stug Life, mortar is a tool that should be used vs static infantry or team weapons. Denying enemy cover with mortar barrage makes sense and is part of combined arms synergy.

Imho reduce the barrage scatter on the 2nd and the following shots. 1st shot can be as is now, if enemy decides not to move his HMG, he will suffer from the consequences of the following mortar barrage shots being more precise.

Players should be encouraged to use barrage over autofire, barrage cooldown reduction could help a bit too.


If I could, I'd have the autofire removed on everything and the barrage recharge time reduced to nearly nothing at all, certainly under 10s. Then the barrage damage, scatter, AOE or all of it could be buffed and if you don't move your units after the shells start falling then fuck you.
28 Oct 2019, 17:44 PM
#11
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 879

Mortars are way way way way way too slow to start doing their job. You tell a mortar to barrage an area and it takes ages for the crew to finish their current task, rotate the mortar, finish their animation and then start their barrage.

If mortars were faster at starting to do their job they'd be a lot more usable.
28 Oct 2019, 17:53 PM
#12
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2019, 17:23 PMmrgame2
Doesnt make sense? This will further nerf Wehr already weaken combine arms play. Considering Allies fast packup and 6 man survivability and even on field reinforcement.

I would love to counter allies HMG with mortar by this suggestion but no, it will affect Wehr more.
barrage has a cd u know ?
28 Oct 2019, 18:21 PM
#13
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

I wouldn't want to see mortars be able to oneshot team weapons again, this reintroduces the problem of the opponent not being able to react.

It would be better to shave off a few tenths of a second of setup/teardown time of mortars to make them more flexible.
28 Oct 2019, 21:04 PM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7

Weakness by modifiers is a terrible idea, reminiscent of Age of Empires era RTSs where unit x countered unit y just by doing more damage to it and taking less damage from it.

Mortars should be adjusted, in a more elegant manner.

Or CoH1 era, where we had 50 armor types all with different damage tables.
28 Oct 2019, 21:27 PM
#17
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

Mortars are way way way way way too slow to start doing their job. You tell a mortar to barrage an area and it takes ages for the crew to finish their current task, rotate the mortar, finish their animation and then start their barrage.

If mortars were faster at starting to do their job they'd be a lot more usable.



Absolutely agree on this, Perhaps Setup time bonuses or something of the like could improve this.


I would also add that mortars are terrible in teamgames past like 15 minutes as a result of this and how easy they are to wipe with arty(slow teardown times, 2 men on the same tile with the gun). The window of opportunity for these unit can be quite small, Faster setup could help a bit in this regard, or even better responsiveness. If its not just me lagging I find mortars are terribly slow in responding to commands, much more so than other units.


Agreed with Stug Life, mortar is a tool that should be used vs static infantry or team weapons. Denying enemy cover with mortar barrage makes sense and is part of combined arms synergy.

Imho reduce the barrage scatter on the 2nd and the following shots. 1st shot can be as is now, if enemy decides not to move his HMG, he will suffer from the consequences of the following mortar barrage shots being more precise.

Players should be encouraged to use barrage over autofire, barrage cooldown reduction could help a bit too.


To be honest I've been practicing with Mortar HTs and I'm finding spamming attack ground to be more effective than barrage. Its too often i'll fire a barrage and nothing will be there a few seconds later. Easier to keep smoke off cooldown as well.

It would be nice if barrage added more than a slight ROF buff for most units, particularly the Scott as USF's primary Indirect unit for lategame.

28 Oct 2019, 21:55 PM
#18
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 1513

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Oct 2019, 16:38 PMLago
The nerfs to indirect fire did an excellent job of stopping mortars being an all-powerful bleed and wipe tool.
However, they also weakened the mortar against the unit it's meant to counter: the HMG.

That'd help the now somewhat off-meta mortar fill its intended role without returning it to its prior undesirable state.


Agreed. As others suggested improved aim-time, set-up time, tear-down time could help. Also the smoke barrage needs to be faster than it is now. I don't know why it is implemented to be such an unresponsive ability.
aaa
28 Oct 2019, 22:46 PM
#19
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1438

how they took it aside is above and beyond,. I talkd about increasing mortar damage on Machine Guns specifically many years ago. mortars need only buff vs mgs not any other.
29 Oct 2019, 00:50 AM
#20
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1537

Seems like a great idea actually. They already sort of did this with the buff against garrisoned units, since that was within the role of mortars. Makes sense to do it with support weapons
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