pupchen lack said green cover, that's why it has 5 men
I tried the KV8 in a game that was already decided last night. The DOT is pretty low. I don't know if all flamethrowers are equal, but it only has one compared to the two that the OST flamer has. It took 28-30 seconds to kill a single Panzerfusilier squad that the owner didn't realize was being attacked. I did have to move the tank once which added to the time because the flamethrower stopped. In any event, it isn't what I would consider OP but everybody has different definitions.
I think it works better against AT guns because of the green cover. You could always try putting screening infantry in front of the AT gun.
Late game, the other team tried a rush with P4 against a Pershing and my IS2 and KV8. They got the Pershing and KV8, but not the IS2. The KV8 did regularly penetrate the rear armor of the P4's so I think the pen value is what you listed. I didn't see any notes on the damage but think it is still 80.
Brummbar OP plz nerf!!!!
22 Oct 2019, 18:12 PM
#101
Posts: 4474
katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
Katitof-2018
22 Oct 2019, 18:13 PM
#102
Posts: 1527
Permanently Banned
If you're fine with the Croc, the KV-8 is proportionately scaled down in firepower and durability.
If there's an imbalance between the KV-8 and the Brummbar, I think it's probably the Brummbar that's out of line rather than the KV-8.
The KV8 scales down ONLY in durability. The main gun that the croc has is hardly effective. And if you're saying the Brum is out of line, you're suggesting the Brum is in need of buffs and the KV8 is fine?
"I wish THQ was still alive and made CoH2. Ostheer for life."
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22 Oct 2019, 18:13 PM
#103
Posts: 1951
The fact that you test these things in game speaks volumes since many users post without checking stats or testing. Well done.
The time to kill PF is really high and seems out of ordinary, it should be less, around half of that 10-15 secs. The only thing I can guess is that they where on water or snow where they take reduced damage...
Flamer does work better vs entities close together due to AOE.
Damage for the gun is 80.
Thanks. The AOE wasn't that large and only affected some models at first. Having to move to hit the rest added a lot to the time because it is slow.
Somebody garrisoned a squad in front of it. That squad went up quickly.
Honestly, after using it, I'm not sure that it needs any nerfs or buffs but it is a really strange unit. It doesn't kill infantry fast enough to be an effective blob counter. The AT is credible but not great (I killed a snared Puma with it). It's okay as a damage sponge if you don't have an IS2. It seems mediocre at doing a lot of things but not good at doing any one thing.
22 Oct 2019, 18:38 PM
#104
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
...
Honestly, after using it, I'm not sure that it needs any nerfs or buffs but it is a really strange unit. ..
It is a situational unit that is why it should be cheaper and less lethal.
It shines vs units in garrison/ heavy covers and ATGs, good in closed urban maps.
Vs blob is has great synergy with Hmg to slow down enemy units while the flamer does full damage.
It is also a decent damage sponge with the same frontal armor as the Panther and significantly better rear armor.
22 Oct 2019, 20:30 PM
#105
Posts: 3260
The KV8 scales down ONLY in durability. The main gun that the croc has is hardly effective. And if you're saying the Brum is out of line, you're suggesting the Brum is in need of buffs and the KV8 is fine?
The main gun on the Croc used to be a meme gun. It's literally a standard Churchill gun now.
I'm saying if the Brummbar is substantially weaker than the KV-8, buff the Brummbar.
22 Oct 2019, 20:57 PM
#106
Posts: 1527
Permanently Banned
I'm saying if the Brummbar is substantially weaker than the KV-8, buff the Brummbar.
Thanks for supporting my argument because I already proved in every way that the Brum IS weaker than KV8.
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23 Oct 2019, 00:39 AM
#107
Posts: 593
My solution would be to revert the armor back to pre-nerf levels. Right now, Brums are hardcountered by TDs (5% chance to bounce at max range.) KV8s however can bounce every third shot from Stug/JP4/pak/rak (270 armor vs 180-190 pen at max range) and the fact that KV8 has more health too. KV8 bounces more than 5% from panthers. Also, I think the vet 1 shells should fire with faster reload to compensate for significantly higher scatter. Right now the vet 1 ability is as useful as Stug TWP.
Now that people have used the nerfed Brum for a few months, we see a marked decline of the Brum especially in a 1v1. T4 is back to being a dustbin tier for 1v1 after the Brum nerfs. With the ostwind back to being a good unit, few are getting a Brum. The panther right now (for Ost) isn't even a "good" unit anymore, it's a pretty goddamn average unit. I'm not saying it's bad, but it's not a threatening unit which T4 units were supposed to be. It was and is always a good tank for OKW since they don't need to tech for an imaginary "premium" tier.
kv8 is a heavy tank, doctrinal, dont instantly kill models takes time. and if u move itll cut the dmg 2 fold. kv8 cant penetrate a medium tank like a brumbar does to a t76. kv8 dont have a safe way to kill things like the barrage from brum. kv8 dont have smoke ect
23 Oct 2019, 01:50 AM
#108
Posts: 1527
Permanently Banned
kv8 is a heavy tank, doctrinal, dont instantly kill models takes time. and if u move itll cut the dmg 2 fold. kv8 cant penetrate a medium tank like a brumbar does to a t76. kv8 dont have a safe way to kill things like the barrage from brum. kv8 dont have smoke ect
I've already addressed most of this in the original post. Soviets have the most 250+ armored doctrinal units. Brum doesn't instantly kill models on the first shot unless it's a direct hit which usually isn't the case for moving infantry. Brum doesn't have a "safe" way of killing anything with a range of only 35. And the bunker buster was nerfed significantly. KV8 has an alternative gun that is still very good for self defense against mediums. Brum won't be penning anything if u just move the damn tank just a bit. Brum having smoke is doctrinal, which throws your "KV8 doctrinal" excuse out the window.
You're grasping at straws.
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23 Oct 2019, 02:12 AM
#109
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
It is a situational unit that is why it should be cheaper and less lethal.
You're thinking of the Stug III ausf E assault gun.
The Brummbar is underperforming atm, either 40 ranger (+5) or a bit more armour or smaller target size.
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23 Oct 2019, 07:52 AM
#110
Posts: 1351
You're thinking of the Stug III ausf E assault gun.
The Brummbar is underperforming atm, either 40 ranger (+5) or a bit more armour or smaller target size.
Or faster projectile speed. Attack ground predicting where troops will be in 2-3 seconds is just ridiculous. Especially if you compare it to scotts, for example.
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23 Oct 2019, 07:58 AM
#111
Posts: 1794
Anyone know why firing brums on the move will land the round way short of the 35 range?
I think this make it unplayable against 60td. You need to keep still and fire to get that 35 range.
Though i do see top 1v1 player using brums and get vet. But for me a mid 2v2 player, i use ostwind + warfer, is more effective. Brums just needed too much baby sitting for its cost.
I think this make it unplayable against 60td. You need to keep still and fire to get that 35 range.
Though i do see top 1v1 player using brums and get vet. But for me a mid 2v2 player, i use ostwind + warfer, is more effective. Brums just needed too much baby sitting for its cost.
23 Oct 2019, 08:07 AM
#112
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
Anyone know why firing brums on the move will land the round way short of the 35 range?
I think this make it unplayable against 60td. You need to keep still and fire to get that 35 range.
Though i do see top 1v1 player using brums and get vet. But for me a mid 2v2 player, i use ostwind + warfer, is more effective. Brums just needed too much baby sitting for its cost.
Scatter penalty on the move.
It might just as well land way further.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Oct 2019, 08:18 AM
#113
Posts: 1794
In that case we should reduce such penalty since brum is a late tech-comer compared to kv8 and croc/avre since the call in changes.
The reason why allies ai heavy seem to do better because their arrival is met by axis tanks with poor pen counter.
Another results of not enough penning from axis that these tanks dare to stay in the fight.
Granted seems flame damages also not affected by scatter values?
Calls for better pen/vet on stug/panther/jp are well deserved.
The reason why allies ai heavy seem to do better because their arrival is met by axis tanks with poor pen counter.
Another results of not enough penning from axis that these tanks dare to stay in the fight.
Granted seems flame damages also not affected by scatter values?
Calls for better pen/vet on stug/panther/jp are well deserved.
23 Oct 2019, 08:24 AM
#114
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
No, flamers aren't affected by scatter because *drumroll* flames are not ballistic projectiles.
Flamers also don't have the capability to OHK slightly wounded squad with a single shot, contrary to brummbar.
And unless allies specifically get end tech TDs, brummbar isn't exactly easy to pen either.
Axis has more then enough pen to deal with KV-8, OKW can have panther by that time and PaK+anything else that isn't shrecks and is AT oriented to screen PaK will do.
Flamers also don't have the capability to OHK slightly wounded squad with a single shot, contrary to brummbar.
And unless allies specifically get end tech TDs, brummbar isn't exactly easy to pen either.
Axis has more then enough pen to deal with KV-8, OKW can have panther by that time and PaK+anything else that isn't shrecks and is AT oriented to screen PaK will do.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
23 Oct 2019, 11:07 AM
#115
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I don't agree with some of the sentiments here in this thread. I have found the Brummbar to be quite good. It quite consistently 2-shots squads, with the first shot often already taking out a few models. It's vet 1 ability also allows it to soften up or whipe AT gun positions from a safe range.
The KV8 on the other hand feels quite underpowered to me. I mean sure it clears garrisons like every other flamer, but against squads out in the open its damage output always dissapoints me.
The KV8 on the other hand feels quite underpowered to me. I mean sure it clears garrisons like every other flamer, but against squads out in the open its damage output always dissapoints me.
23 Oct 2019, 11:33 AM
#116
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
Anyone know why firing brums on the move will land the round way short of the 35 range?
I think this make it unplayable against 60td. You need to keep still and fire to get that 35
That’s the perfect description of the Brummbar issue. If you try to assault an enemy hardpoint, like the Brummbar is supposed to help you do, it gets absolutely wrecked by 60 range AT guns and TDs, while being unable to bounce any shots with armour or force misses with a small target size. Meanwhile it can’t flank either due to low mobility.
Meanwhile for the cost of T4 and Brummbar you can get 3 Stug III ausf Es, which have much better range and mobility, allowing you to conserve them and get to vet 3, for devastating constant barraging of enemy positions.
The Brummbar is competing with other Ostheer vehicles for deployment and the Stug E for the same role, so it needs to offer enough benefits to warrant deployment.
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23 Oct 2019, 11:33 AM
#117
Posts: 1794
Kv8 come at time where at least wehr have poor response to it.
Brumbar is too late.
Hence the problem.
Brumbar is too late.
Hence the problem.
23 Oct 2019, 11:49 AM
#118
Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1
Brummbär was OP before the last nerfs but now it's in a difficult spot, I agree with that. I would suggest reverting one of the two major nerfs it received (either armour or range).
What I don't agree with is the KV8 comparison because I really don't feel like the KV8 is overperforming at all. It doesn't see much use currently because IS2s are just the much better choice and the KV8 comes with the IS2 in Shock Rifle. If you go KV8 you will have a hard time fighting off Tigers which are used a lot since the last changes. I would say it's situationally strong but not OP at all.
What I don't agree with is the KV8 comparison because I really don't feel like the KV8 is overperforming at all. It doesn't see much use currently because IS2s are just the much better choice and the KV8 comes with the IS2 in Shock Rifle. If you go KV8 you will have a hard time fighting off Tigers which are used a lot since the last changes. I would say it's situationally strong but not OP at all.
23 Oct 2019, 11:53 AM
#119
Posts: 3260
Thanks for supporting my argument because I already proved in every way that the Brum IS weaker than KV8.
Personally I'd hugely ramp up the projectile speed so you don't have to lead its shots with Attack Ground. A late game anti-infantry tank that's particularly geared towards teamgames shouldn't require constant manual targeting.
It worked well for the KV-2.
23 Oct 2019, 11:54 AM
#120
Posts: 919
I know its uncomfortable for some around here and thus it got ignored as I posted it last time. No problem I just post it again
There is a unit in the same spot as Brummbar, but with worse overall performance. Its out of question to think about buffs for Brummbar without thinking about buffing the Sherman 105mm Dozer. So take it into account.
There is a unit in the same spot as Brummbar, but with worse overall performance. Its out of question to think about buffs for Brummbar without thinking about buffing the Sherman 105mm Dozer. So take it into account.
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