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Brummbar OP plz nerf!!!!

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23 Oct 2019, 11:57 AM
#121
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2730

I know its uncomfortable for some around here and thus it got ignored as I posted it last time. No problem I just post it again :)

There is a unit in the same spot as Brummbar, but with worse overall performance. Its out of question to think about buffs for Brummbar without thinking about buffing the Sherman 105mm Dozer. So take it into account.


They buffed the Shermdozer a while back and it's a solid unit now.

Its problem is competition. If you replaced the dumb 'stick a bulldozer on a normal sherman' upgrades with the Sherman 105 you'd see it a fair bit more. Especially in Urban Defence, which can field the Bazooka Rangers to support it.
23 Oct 2019, 14:00 PM
#122
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663

I know its uncomfortable for some around here and thus it got ignored as I posted it last time. No problem I just post it again :)

There is a unit in the same spot as Brummbar, but with worse overall performance. Its out of question to think about buffs for Brummbar without thinking about buffing the Sherman 105mm Dozer. So take it into account.


I like dozer more. It has a turret and seems more durable. Projectile speed and range also seem better. It will shoot at 4 men squads. It wins in my personal ranking.
23 Oct 2019, 16:58 PM
#123
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 354



I like dozer more. It has a turret and seems more durable. Projectile speed and range also seem better. It will shoot at 4 men squads. It wins in my personal ranking.


Drop the 4 men squad victims please. If we go down that route. Ost was designed fighting 6 men squads. Now with the 5 men of usf and ukf it would be poor poor 5 and 4 men squads. And poor soviets they are fighting 5 to 6 men squads instead of 4 men squads as intended

The brum is more durable. More health and armour, but lacks a turret. Nothing wrong with the brum. And if the brum is buffed others deserve a look as well.
23 Oct 2019, 17:09 PM
#124
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 663



Drop the 4 men squad victims please. If we go down that route. Ost was designed fighting 6 men squads. Now with the 5 men of usf and ukf it would be poor poor 5 and 4 men squads. And poor soviets they are fighting 5 to 6 men squads instead of 4 men squads as intended

The brum is more durable. More health and armour, but lacks a turret. Nothong wrong with the brum. And if the brum is buffed other deserve a lookbas well.


I go that route only to show how easy it is sometimes to forget game basics. There are too many players who forget cerain flaws of factions. It is a good idea to remind stuff like this.

Brum is too micro intensive for its tech and price imo.
23 Oct 2019, 17:23 PM
#125
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

I disagree, the 4 man route is most relevant now. The wehr today is different from old time it was designed to play soviet. My theory is, Wehr as most picked faction. They are template behind features of coh. The positioning, the teching, the arty, the armor etc. The good intro to mechanics difference in this RTS.

But since they are most played, you want them to be least powerful. If not, it will turn off players picking other faction. They get all the tools, but probably the most counterable of all.

Back to brumbar, i believe the story all started and ended during the 2v2 championship. Weeks before, we got a big patch and inside, changes to AOE profile of Brumbar. Players before seldom picked it. After the patch, people found it useful.

Sadly i think Allies players never tried adapting counter to it, been a long time since they have to deal with a deadly infantry killer in Wehr army.

As earlier said, Wehr needs to be the weakest faction to be 'fair'. So during the championship, Brumbar got a quick nerf hit until today. A sad case imo.

We see less use of Brumbar outside friendly random 1v1 sparring. It is simply no longer cost efficient to use it.
23 Oct 2019, 17:42 PM
#126
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6414 | Subs: 1



Drop the 4 men squad victims please. If we go down that route. Ost was designed fighting 6 men squads. Now with the 5 men of usf and ukf it would be poor poor 5 and 4 men squads. And poor soviets they are fighting 5 to 6 men squads instead of 4 men squads as intended

The brum is more durable. More health and armour, but lacks a turret.
Nothong wrong with the brum. And if the brum is buffed other deserve a lookbas well.

At least try to get your stat straight, KV-8 has more HP, more frontal armor and significantly more rear than Brummbar.
23 Oct 2019, 17:54 PM
#127
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 354

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 17:42 PMVipper

At least try to get your stat straight, KV-8 has more HP, more frontal armor and significantly more rear than Brummbar.


I was comparing it to the sherman dozer. I could have stated that better ;)
23 Oct 2019, 20:32 PM
#128
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6414 | Subs: 1



I was comparing it to the sherman dozer. I could have stated that better ;)

Dozer has 80 HP less a vet 0 but goes up to 880 at vet going from the set number of hit from a AT gun to one extra hit.
23 Oct 2019, 23:10 PM
#129
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 11:57 AMLago


They buffed the Shermdozer a while back and it's a solid unit now.


In comparison to Brummbar buffed Dozer at Vet0 has:

80 less health / 40 less armor / 0.4 less speed / 0.3 less accleration / less AOE / less AOE damage / way less pentration (has 35 while Brummbar has 100-140) -> it deals deflection damage like Brummbar since buff at least

Vet influence: on Vet1 it has 80 health more than Brummbar but on Vet2 it has 88 armor less than Brummbar (instead of 40)

It has a turret and slighty higher ROF, but its special ability is way worse than bunker buster and its projectile speed is even a little bit slower than Brummbars projectile speed. Its crew can disembark and repair. On the other side it can't have other doctrinal advantages like Brummbar (for example Panzer tactican) and locks out a whole bunch of other doctrinal abilities and units (Rangers, Pershing, Priests, Calliopes..).

Conclusion: All together I would always pick the Brummbar over the Dozer. Especially because it is nondoctrinal and thus can be combined with a lot of other units and abilities. So if the Dozer is fine, the Brummbar is fine more than ever.


Maybe one of the biggest problems of Dozer is that its low range means it gets totally wrecked by shrek blobs (infantry should be wrecked by Dozer instead) while Brummbar will bounce most Bazookas and Piats and only get the lower deflection damage. This difference gets even more obvious once Brummbar gets its armor uograde at Vet2. I do think Dozer is in a very akward position, way more than Brummbar.


24 Oct 2019, 01:04 AM
#130
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172

Kv8 is useless in front of shreck blobs. As a primary anti infantry tank its role must not be limited to clearing only garrisons. For that we have flamer engineers. By the time it comes enemy usually has roaming blobs of shreks and a panzer 4. Believe it or not a panzer 4 can easily penetrate it from rear as kv is quite slow. And shrecks do the main deal. Fire doesn't really kill as fast as it makes you believe. Now if you compare to the OST halftrack. That fire does immense damage to infantry and squads. If you are a second late in retreating that means the squad is lost. Now people can argue it has 2 flame projectors etc. Whatever. But kv 8 is not at all OP at this moment. Rather nothing really penetrates the high armor of brumbar. It 2 shots a Soviet squad and wham it evaporates.
Couple it with an ostwind and you have a combo only TD can counter. For which you have shreks. So yeah i think brumbar is fine where it is.
Its a non doctrinal tank. Keep it like that. No need to compare with a doctrinal tank which performs just okay.
24 Oct 2019, 01:27 AM
#131
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 816

Kv8 is useless in front of shreck blobs. As a primary anti infantry tank its role must not be limited to clearing only garrisons. For that we have flamer engineers. By the time it comes enemy usually has roaming blobs of shreks and a panzer 4. Believe it or not a panzer 4 can easily penetrate it from rear as kv is quite slow. And shrecks do the main deal. Fire doesn't really kill as fast as it makes you believe. Now if you compare to the OST halftrack. That fire does immense damage to infantry and squads. If you are a second late in retreating that means the squad is lost. Now people can argue it has 2 flame projectors etc. Whatever. But kv 8 is not at all OP at this moment. Rather nothing really penetrates the high armor of brumbar. It 2 shots a Soviet squad and wham it evaporates.
Couple it with an ostwind and you have a combo only TD can counter. For which you have shreks. So yeah i think brumbar is fine where it is.
Its a non doctrinal tank. Keep it like that. No need to compare with a doctrinal tank which performs just okay.
]

Kv-8 is good for beating up to 6 shreks if well microed. If theres a tank that would make it much tougher to Know how much dmg you can absorb before backing. Of course other tanks Outrange shreks so they have perhaps an easier time.

It gets a lot better at vet 2 when it has the speed to chase better and vet 3 when it gets bonus range and burst duration. At vet 0 it's pretty meh though.

Brumbars is better earlier but the Kv8 is better later on with that veterancy when it can chase well to squadwipe
24 Oct 2019, 06:54 AM
#132
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 354

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Oct 2019, 20:32 PMVipper

Dozer has 80 HP less a vet 0 but goes up to 880 at vet going from the set number of hit from a AT gun to one extra hit.


I am not aware of the vet hp bonus, its also not listed at coh2db.

It seems its mostly up to date on that site, but could be outdated ofcourse.
24 Oct 2019, 08:44 AM
#133
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6414 | Subs: 1

Kv8 is useless in front of shreck blobs. As a primary anti infantry tank its role must not be limited to clearing only garrisons. For that we have flamer engineers. By the time it comes enemy usually has roaming blobs of shreks and a panzer 4. Believe it or not a panzer 4 can easily penetrate it from rear as kv is quite slow. And shrecks do the main deal. Fire doesn't really kill as fast as it makes you believe. Now if you compare to the OST halftrack. That fire does immense damage to infantry and squads. If you are a second late in retreating that means the squad is lost. Now people can argue it has 2 flame projectors etc. Whatever. But kv 8 is not at all OP at this moment. Rather nothing really penetrates the high armor of brumbar. It 2 shots a Soviet squad and wham it evaporates.
Couple it with an ostwind and you have a combo only TD can counter. For which you have shreks. So yeah i think brumbar is fine where it is.
Its a non doctrinal tank. Keep it like that. No need to compare with a doctrinal tank which performs just okay.

To counter shreck blob add a hmg the flamethrower of the Vehicle will care little about the suppression modifiers.

PzIV has a 76% chance at max range to penetrate KV-8s rear/side armor. By attempting a flank it will probably also expose its rear/side armor (unless it manage to attack perpendicular) which KV-8 has a 67% chance to penetrate. Even so it need 6 shots that hit and penetrate to kills it.

AT 5.1 speed/1.4 acceleration it is about as fast as IS-2.



I am not aware of the vet hp bonus, its also not listed at coh2db.

It seems its mostly up to date on that site, but could be outdated ofcourse.


Sherman 105mm Dozer

The Dozer has had some significant changes to improve its anti-infantry performance, while reducing its OHK radius against units that are at full health.

-AOE from 5.5 to 6
-AOE damage from 1/0.35/0.0.5 to 1/0.35/0.175
-AOE distance from 1.125/2.25/3.375 to 0.425/1/5
-Now deals 50% deflection damage
-Range from 40 to 35
-Distance scatter max from 4.8 to 2.5
-Veterancy 2: +160 health, -15% weapon reload, +20% rotation; was previously +20% speed, +20% rotation, +30% Accuracy, +20% Accel/Decel.
-Veterancy 3: +35% weapon rotation, -10% weapon reload, +30% Accel/Decel; was previously +35 weapon rotation, -20% Reload.
24 Oct 2019, 10:43 AM
#134
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

Brum armor nerf and dozer hp buff makes no sense to me.

At worse, the vet should be swapped. Since allies have 60TD that invalidate any armor vet.
In the end, allies get the best of both world. Dozer armor can deflect p4 and stug and still get extra hit.

Befuddled me why the balance team has this strange reasoning.

Armor was wehr strong point. It supposed to act as a risk vs reward, to dive in and count on armor vet to have a chance to deflect. Which is invalidated nowadays.

Brums was given as a stock choice is to aid wehr weaker infantry against late game blobs. Its armor vet is supposed to reward it, it has slow slow tracking and gun traverse. All work well with original armor values. Armor as we know, just means a chance to bounce.

Meaning all wehr armor vet bonus is wasted. May as well change the bonus to +hp..

The dozer super turrret more than makes up for its speed too.
24 Oct 2019, 17:14 PM
#135
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 456

Brummbar should have its projectile speed increased, same with Stug E.

Stug E is honestly the real weak unit IMO, Brummbar seems fine.
24 Oct 2019, 20:52 PM
#136
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1303

I tried a Brummbar in a 4v4 on Red Ball and a KV8 in a 2v2 on Elst last night.

The Brummbar didn't get lots of kills (22), but it made it really difficult for the two players on the other side to keep infantry near the front line. It didn't get any 1-shot wipes, but can reliably 2-shot wipe squads if they don't retreat. The only thing I didn't like about it is a couple times I wanted to use the vet ability and fire into the fog of war. If a new unit would come into view, the ability would either cancel or fire at it, which isn't what I wanted. I think it is priced right and doesn't need any buffs or nerfs.

The KV8 on Elst got a lot of kills at first, wiping several raketen crews, but ultimately ended up dying to raketens. It doesn't move fast, and really feeds vet to raketens. Its damage against infantry on the move still seems bad compared to a flamer HT. I was really surprised by the 45mm. I got a couple of penetrations against a Panther with it. I'd rather see the flamer part buffed a bit and the AT nerfed.
24 Oct 2019, 22:26 PM
#137
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 893

I tried a Brummbar in a 4v4 on Red Ball and a KV8 in a 2v2 on Elst last night.

The Brummbar didn't get lots of kills (22), but it made it really difficult for the two players on the other side to keep infantry near the front line. It didn't get any 1-shot wipes, but can reliably 2-shot wipe squads if they don't retreat. The only thing I didn't like about it is a couple times I wanted to use the vet ability and fire into the fog of war. If a new unit would come into view, the ability would either cancel or fire at it, which isn't what I wanted. I think it is priced right and doesn't need any buffs or nerfs.

The KV8 on Elst got a lot of kills at first, wiping several raketen crews, but ultimately ended up dying to raketens. It doesn't move fast, and really feeds vet to raketens. Its damage against infantry on the move still seems bad compared to a flamer HT. I was really surprised by the 45mm. I got a couple of penetrations against a Panther with it. I'd rather see the flamer part buffed a bit and the AT nerfed.


You can’t nerf the KV8’s main gun. It’s the exact 45mm At gun you get from Urban and community defense, so stats are the same (pen is better on the 45mm arty).
24 Oct 2019, 23:41 PM
#138
avatar of Acidfreak

Posts: 172

I saw a game in which crocodile was burning infantry at such a fast pace. I get its an expensive tank. But kv8's performance is nowhere near that performance. Rakatens can retreat as well and are 5 man squads.
Instead of a nerf i would actually advocate a buff to the flame damage.

Let's be honest. No body is going to use that 45 mm gun to fight panzer4s. It only works on light vehicles. I know someone will pop up now and give stats. But in real match scenario the tank is supposed to be a good anti infantry tank. It should absolutely excel in that role even if we need to increase the cost slightly.
25 Oct 2019, 11:11 AM
#139
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3242 | Subs: 1



You can’t nerf the KV8’s main gun. It’s the exact 45mm At gun you get from Urban and community defense, so stats are the same (pen is better on the 45mm arty).

Su76 uses the zis-3 gun and the isu-152 uses an ml20 the king tiger uses the pak 43 but each has different stats than their crew weapon. Things get dicey when you take the stats and slap them in a mobile armored meatbag.
25 Oct 2019, 11:25 AM
#140
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13783 | Subs: 7

I saw a game in which crocodile was burning infantry at such a fast pace. I get its an expensive tank. But kv8's performance is nowhere near that performance.

KV-8 is also nowhere near that price tag nor its limited to 1.
Remember that croc got generalist heavy cost, but it sacrifices 100+ penetration just to excel vs infantry and its pretty fair trade-off.

Instead of a nerf i would actually advocate a buff to the flame damage.

Assuming you're speaking of KV-8, I don't think it needs any buffs and if it ever did, it should be though vet changes.

Let's be honest. No body is going to use that 45 mm gun to fight panzer4s. It only works on light vehicles. I know someone will pop up now and give stats. But in real match scenario the tank is supposed to be a good anti infantry tank. It should absolutely excel in that role even if we need to increase the cost slightly.

45mm can actually fend off ost P4.
Its not going to destroy it, because it'll run away, but it will not go down to it when at high health.
It is good AI tank that's somehow flexible and while not exceptionally, its still pretty durable.
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