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Brummbar OP plz nerf!!!!

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21 Oct 2019, 17:02 PM
#81
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

The problem is, that KV2 has no need for its gun. It stays something better gets removed.


Do you mean the KV-8? I'm pretty sure the KV-2 needs its gun.

Removing the pea shooter apparently full-blown anti-tank gun from the KV-8 is a good call imo. You could then slash its price a little.


It was changed because KV8 was never build in 1vs1. Before it couldn't really do anything vs PZIV so it had no place in the meta. You still have to change the weapon. Its not like the Churchill which shoots with both weapons.


It was never built in 1v1 because the only 1v1 doctrine it was in was Shock Rifle and you'd always stall for the IS-2 instead. That, and it wasn't that good at anti-infantry duty either.

You don't need to make the KV-8 a generalist if it's a good enough specialist.



Visual language is very important in a game so determined to hide its stats behind vague statements like 'improved mobility'.

You'd expect the KV-1 to have penetration like a T-34/76, and the KV-8 to have penetration like a T-70. That used to be true.
21 Oct 2019, 17:08 PM
#82
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:50 PMLago


If that's true that should be reverted.

The KV-8 is a KV-1 with the 76mm gun swapped out for the T-70's little 45mm.

It should NOT have better penetration than the KV-1, which is literally the same tank with a bigger gun.


KV-1 still does 160 damage, KV8 does 80. Outside the 1vs1 situation (for which reason it was buffed) a switch to AT mode is rarely of any use.
21 Oct 2019, 17:11 PM
#83
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

KV-1 still does 160 damage, KV8 does 80. Outside the 1vs1 situation (for which reason it was buffed) a switch to AT mode is rarely of any use.


It's the sort of thing you'd never expect if you hadn't read the patch notes.

If the gun truly is superfluous, scrap it. Better still, cut it back down to 50 pen and remove the toggle so they fire at the same time like the Croc. Make it a little better at its job.
21 Oct 2019, 17:27 PM
#84
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 17:11 PMLago


It's the sort of thing you'd never expect if you hadn't read the patch notes.



That could be true... ;)
21 Oct 2019, 17:42 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:50 PMLago


If that's true that should be reverted.

The KV-8 is a KV-1 with the 76mm gun swapped out for the T-70's little 45mm.

It should NOT have better penetration than the KV-1, which is literally the same tank with a bigger gun.


KV-8

-Added to the doctrine
-Health from 800 to 960.
-Flamethrower range from 25 to 30
-45mm penetration from 50/50/50 to 140/80/60
-45mm AOE from 2.5 to 0.5
-45mm AOE distance from 0.625/0.9375/1.25 to 0.15/0.2/0.25
-Capture Point replaced with Inspire: Infantry within 30m will move faster and have their weapon cooldowns reduced by 20%. Costs 25 munitions.


Actually has the similar penetration values at the ATG

45mm Anti-Tank Gun for half the damage
...
-AP round penetration from 140/80/60 to 140/100/80.

Actually tighrope had a test where the KV-8 would beat a PzIV one on one when the patch was about to get out.
21 Oct 2019, 17:45 PM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1



I read it and I'm pretty sure he meant that too as he said tank (the StuG even has the chassis of PZIII). And if you want to bee desperately historical correct than please don't say TD but Sturmgeschütz or Assault Gun.

One is not enough? Lets ignore superior range. Luckily you should have at least two StuGs or a combo of StuG + PZIV when he brings out his KV8.

PZIV J: That doesn't changes anything about PZIV beeing T3. Its only one variant and you surely still don't build it to counter KV8. As Ostheer build StuG, as OKW build JPIV. PZIV is an allrounder.

I responded to statement that was wrong PzIV are not an effective counter to KV-8 and guessing what the user wanted to say does not help either.

You can make as many scenario as you like but no mater how many stug you want to bring into your scenario Soviets can bring more ATGs to support the KV-8.
21 Oct 2019, 18:10 PM
#87
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339



Ost T4 costs more to tech to than Sov T4. Only Ost has a true T4 that is actually expensive to tech to.


Posts like this lead to confusion at players who don't know. Both factions have same starting fuel, so I don't factor this in.


Full tech Ostheer with all phases and all buildings: 235 fuel
Full tech soviet with all buildings and side techs (molotov + AT grenade): 220 fuel

Thats not a big difference and its not a real one too, because in most games Ostheer will skip one building and Soviet will either skip T1 or T2 and depending on map probably the molotov too. This brings soviet down to around 200 fuel and ostheer down to about 220. Now it depends on playing style. If Soviet sets on early pressure with M3 it costs fuel. Most probably Soviet needs its T70 for 70 fuel and so on. On the other side Ostheer can build vehicles too, but there is no such important vehicle for Ostheer as the T70 for Soviet which delays for example a PZIV as much as the T70 delays the first KV8. So in a real game Soviet T4 doesn't come so early.
21 Oct 2019, 18:18 PM
#88
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 17:45 PMVipper

I responded to statement that was wrong PzIV are not an effective counter to KV-8 and guessing what the user wanted to say does not help either.


You wanted to be better and use the correct terms, but you failed too. As I said: Sturmgeschütz or Assault Gun is correct when you want to be really correct. Thx.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 17:45 PMVipper

You can make as many scenario as you like but no mater how many stug you want to bring into your scenario Soviets can bring more ATGs to support the KV-8.


Not a single soviet ATG will help you in your scenario. Its because of the range. You have to move into 35 range with your KV8. Since StuGs have a range of 50 they will be out of the range of your ATGs unless you want to pull your AtGs so close to the eenemy frontline that they will be captured. And in addition you should pray there is no Ostheer PAK around that stuns the KV8.
21 Oct 2019, 18:58 PM
#89
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1317

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:42 PMVipper

1) Check you stat penetration values of KV-8 is not 50 but 140/80/60.

2) PzIV firing at KV-8 max range will need above 2 minute of firing before killing, maybe in your book that counts as an effective counter but not in mine.


I checked https://coh2db.com/stats/. TBH, I didn't check patch notes to see if the website was out of date. I've used a KV8 only once in the last couple of months and it seemed to bounce a lot and not do full damage (160) so I assumed the website was correct.

When I tried it, it seemed only marginal for shrek blobs due to their AT plus any ATG, TD, or tank that was around. The main gun is either/or so it can't deal with any sort of combined arms. Ultimately, it really just means that you're delaying a IS2 by 4-5 minutes for a very situational unit. It's better to wait a couple more minutes and get the IS2. Part of the reason why you don't see Brummbars so much is the same as the KV8. Why get a mostly AI tank when you can get a Tiger after another couple minutes.
21 Oct 2019, 21:21 PM
#90
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1



You wanted to be better and use the correct terms, but you failed too. As I said: Sturmgeschütz or Assault Gun is correct when you want to be really correct. Thx.

You can argue semantics as much as you like, both in real life and in game Stug-G was/is used to counter tanks and that make it a TD regardless of it original design as an assault gun. Both in real life and it game it does not make a Tank.


Not a single soviet ATG will help you in your scenario. Its because of the range. You have to move into 35 range with your KV8. Since StuGs have a range of 50 they will be out of the range of your ATGs unless you want to pull your AtGs so close to the eenemy frontline that they will be captured. And in addition you should pray there is no Ostheer PAK around that stuns the KV8.

Yes it because of range that ATG will help in this, scenario zis can fire on Stug from range 60 while the stug has to close in to 50. Any infatry trying to attack atg will simply be burned to crisp...

And if one has invested in stug and packs too counter a KV-8 then his infatry will simply lose to enemy infatry...

I am not sure why you continue this, what I have pointed out is that PzIV are not a cost efficient counter to KV-8 and unless you want to argue that they are I have little to add.

Again the problem here is that KV-8 is too lethal it should be cheaper and less lethal.
21 Oct 2019, 21:26 PM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1



I checked https://coh2db.com/stats/. TBH, I didn't check patch notes to see if the website was out of date. I've used a KV8 only once in the last couple of months and it seemed to bounce a lot and not do full damage (160) so I assumed the website was correct.

When I tried it, it seemed only marginal for shrek blobs due to their AT plus any ATG, TD, or tank that was around. The main gun is either/or so it can't deal with any sort of combined arms. Ultimately, it really just means that you're delaying a IS2 by 4-5 minutes for a very situational unit. It's better to wait a couple more minutes and get the IS2. Part of the reason why you don't see Brummbars so much is the same as the KV8. Why get a mostly AI tank when you can get a Tiger after another couple minutes.

Well some times things slip unnoticed, and at least you checked stat, other do not bother even doing that, that is why I simply suggested that you check your stats...

The point I was trying to make is that PzIV is not a cost efficient counter to the KV-8, and it might even end up losing if the fight moves to close range.

The early super heavies is a problem imo and they should be delayed but this is a separate issue from the KV-8.

KV-8 should be a primarily AI unit and thus it should be less of an investment, an thus it should be cheaper and thus it should be less lethal.
21 Oct 2019, 21:33 PM
#92
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1586 | Subs: 2

Flames do more damage to units in cover right? Does that mean that atg crews take increased damage from flames? Asking since atg cover is so wonky
21 Oct 2019, 21:37 PM
#93
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1

Flames do more damage to units in cover right? Does that mean that atg crews take increased damage from flames? Asking since atg cover is so wonky

KV-8 flamer weapon has x1 vs all cover type and x1.25 vs garrison.

I have not checked about the DOT...
21 Oct 2019, 22:46 PM
#94
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 21:21 PMVipper

I am not sure why you continue this, what I have pointed out is that PzIV are not a cost efficient counter to KV-8 and unless you want to argue that they are I have little to add.

Again the problem here is that KV-8 is too lethal it should be cheaper and less lethal.


I never challenged that the PZIV is not a good counter for KV8 and I do think it is not meant to be. I just said that StuG is a cost efficient tank counter. Then you that that is not a tank, but a TD, I said its an assault gun... and so on... so lets cut that.

The point is that the ATGs will not be of any help. Normally you don't use KV8 as a defensive tool, but as an assault tool. So you'll drive into the range of the StuG without the StuG beeing exposed to your ATG fire. only if it will follow your retreat it gets into range. A single StuG can force a KV8 into retreat at least. Don't forget that you have manpower/fuel and population to spare if you have a StuG and he has a KV8. So you should have something to support your StuG.

I absolutely agree that the KV8 is lethal and so is a halftrack with flamers or a Churchill with flamers all at their time. Its all about their timing and how they can be countered at that moment. I see the problem mainly in 2vs2 and up. When you get your KV8 there is already a growing shrek blob. My argument here was that the KV8 has to be crazy because shrek blobs are frontally so crazy strong vs tanks. Its similar with Ostwind and elite units with super Bazooka. The Ostwind (after is recent buffs) has to be strong to stand a chance. The Ostwind doesn't have to be strong to counter Shock Troops for instant. I'm all in for a nerf of KV8 that is bound to penetration and/or aimtime nerf (at least when not in cover) for shreks/super bazooka. Frontally storming at tanks to destroy them is such a lame game mechanic...
21 Oct 2019, 22:56 PM
#95
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1


I never challenged that the PZIV is not a good counter for KV8...
...

Then we agree and there is more to say on that, Stug can scare KV-8s, getting a kill is another story.

As I have said in previous post imo DOT flames should be removed from vehicles autofire and move to an ability.

That would allow them to deliver enough damage but not continuously and not vs 2 ATGs.

On the other hand vehicles that are specialized should cost more than main line tanks. Having KV-8 cost more than T-34/85 is a mistake imo to begin with. When KV-8 got a tech cost its price should had gone down instead of being buffed.

If one lower the cost of KV-8 to something like 100-120 then one can adjust its performance to that price.

Then the unit would an affordable option for specialized situations.
22 Oct 2019, 00:50 AM
#96
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1081

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 22:56 PMVipper

Then we agree and there is more to say on that, Stug can scare KV-8s, getting a kill is another story.




Exactly. Meanwhile, any allied LV can secure a kill on the flamer HT because the HT has no speed advantage over allied lights. Comparing KV8 with Croc is unfair as Croc deserves to be an absolute beast at a whopping 230 fuel. I'm fine with the fact a Croc can just straight up roast double at guns.
22 Oct 2019, 07:23 AM
#97
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 796

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 17:02 PMLago


Do you mean the KV-8? I'm pretty sure the KV-2 needs its gun.

Removing the pea shooter apparently full-blown anti-tank gun from the KV-8 is a good call imo. You could then slash its price a little.


Yes, I was meaning the KV-8. I am sorry.
22 Oct 2019, 13:21 PM
#98
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

Exactly. Meanwhile, any allied LV can secure a kill on the flamer HT because the HT has no speed advantage over allied lights. Comparing KV8 with Croc is unfair as Croc deserves to be an absolute beast at a whopping 230 fuel. I'm fine with the fact a Croc can just straight up roast double at guns.


If you're fine with the Croc, the KV-8 is proportionately scaled down in firepower and durability.

If there's an imbalance between the KV-8 and the Brummbar, I think it's probably the Brummbar that's out of line rather than the KV-8.
22 Oct 2019, 17:10 PM
#99
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1317

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 21:37 PMVipper

KV-8 flamer weapon has x1 vs all cover type and x1.25 vs garrison.

I have not checked about the DOT...


I tried the KV8 in a game that was already decided last night. The DOT is pretty low. I don't know if all flamethrowers are equal, but it only has one compared to the two that the OST flamer has. It took 28-30 seconds to kill a single Panzerfusilier squad that the owner didn't realize was being attacked. I did have to move the tank once which added to the time because the flamethrower stopped. In any event, it isn't what I would consider OP but everybody has different definitions.

I think it works better against AT guns because of the green cover. You could always try putting screening infantry in front of the AT gun.

Late game, the other team tried a rush with P4 against a Pershing and my IS2 and KV8. They got the Pershing and KV8, but not the IS2. The KV8 did regularly penetrate the rear armor of the P4's so I think the pen value is what you listed. I didn't see any notes on the damage but think it is still 80.
22 Oct 2019, 17:47 PM
#100
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6444 | Subs: 1



I tried the KV8 in a game that was already decided last night. The DOT is pretty low. I don't know if all flamethrowers are equal, but it only has one compared to the two that the OST flamer has. It took 28-30 seconds to kill a single Panzerfusilier squad that the owner didn't realize was being attacked. ...

The fact that you test these things in game speaks volumes since many users post without checking stats or testing. Well done.

The time to kill PF is really high and seems out of ordinary, it should be less, around half of that 10-15 secs. The only thing I can guess is that they where on water or snow where they take reduced damage...

Flamer does work better vs entities close together due to AOE.

Damage for the gun is 80.
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