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russian armor

Brummbar OP plz nerf!!!!

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21 Oct 2019, 13:58 PM
#61
avatar of Maret

Posts: 565

Why not add non-doc smoke for brumbar? Or smoke shells? it completely resolve problem with AT-guns. While he still vulnerable for flanking.
21 Oct 2019, 14:08 PM
#62
avatar of blancat

Posts: 601



No its simply the damage vs AT-guns that is too much. Allied close range AI tanks like KV8 and 105mm need a health pool because they eat heavy damage from the common Shrek blobs frontally in addition to the damage of other AT weapons. Infantry killing should be their role, they shouldn't be owned by it. If all infantry held At weapons would be flanking weapons (vs medium tanks and up), then you could lower their health or/and tone down their damage. I'm instantly in for that. Imo Shrek and the Super Bazooka variant for elite units need a serious penetration nerf.



The Kv-8 has damage reduction passive, too much hp and burns AT-gun and Panzer Shrek infantry too quickly

Kv-8 is not problem to shrek because he have damage reduction and he melts AT infantry faster than Panzer Shrek fires

Pak gun cant stop the Kv-8 even with two of them, unless Pak gun uses a TWP

nowadays KV-8 is really hard to kill
21 Oct 2019, 14:30 PM
#63
avatar of blancat

Posts: 601

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 13:58 PMMaret
Why not add non-doc smoke for brumbar? Or smoke shells? it completely resolve problem with AT-guns. While he still vulnerable for flanking.


Brummbar dont need smoke shell
Use infantry if the AT gun is hard to deal with

Brummbar is already strong enough, and just because the KV-8 is too strong doesn't mean Broomba should buff

If Brummbar have a smoke shell, it will destroy walking on both feet(include AT gun) with a ground fire while safely blocking the at gun
21 Oct 2019, 14:42 PM
#64
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3213 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 11:49 AMMaret

IRC only ISU-152, KV-2 and Brummbar deal deflection. Proper hardcounters for which targets? M-42 proper hardcounter for any lv. Could it deal deflection for mediums? Su-76 could deal deflection to heavies and mediums? I don't see any reason make deflection exclusively for heavy TD while other AT units will be without deflection to their targets. If you have high penetration, you don't need deflection at all. Deflection could be option for units with poor penetration to not become burden for your pop-cap in lategame. Or for units like KV-2 and brum.

Deflection for these guys?
SU: SU-76, M-42 "baby at-gun", Zis-gun, IS-2 ?
USF: AT gun (have pretty high ROF), Jackson, M10, Pershing ?
UKF: M10, 6 pounder, 17 pounder, FF, Churchills, Comet?
OKW: raketen,Puma, JP4, JT, KT ?
OST: Tigers, pak, Elef, Panther, Stug?

In fact, deflection hurts more, units with high armor. While only allied doctrinal heavies have enough armor, Axis will hurt much more from such change. P4 armor skirts will become less workable. P5 armor too. I think, such change just broke entire balance and dynamic of game.

You are replying but not reading.
I've only mentioned heavy armour because it's heavy armour that is having an issue as either the armour does something or it doesn't. This was problematic for heavy TDs who were buffed to the point it's a problem for armour. There has to be a medium between armour being too good and not good enough.
Id have deflection damage on su85, Jackson, firefly(iirc FF already has some) panther, isu, kv-2,is-2,tiger KT Pershing and possibly the comet

One could also consider perhaps looking at adding it to units like the StuG via vet

Also I fail to see how this is actually a nerf to high armored units... I'm suggesting it because high armored units are under performing. Instead of a small chance to not receive any damage they would be taking damage constantly, but much less. Remember this is in tandem with a pen decrease on TDs.


The idea is to remove some of the frustrating elements of paying for a td/high armour unit and it not doing what you are paying for.

Medium AT has a good balance for how well it works, same with ligh at (as limited as it is) but once you amp up the scale things start to fall apart. You pay ~200 fuel for a tank that won't bounce anything is just as frustrating as buying a ~140 fuel hard counter that doesn't pan anything.

Look at it this way- a KT COULD bounce EVERY SINGLE shell all game and not take a lick of damage, or it could never bounce a single shot and die without making use of its very expensive armour
With deflection damage and a lowered pen the KT will be more Lilley to bounce, but will still need to patch up a bit and is susceptible to a high volume of fire

I'm looking for a reliability and predictability to the most unreliable and unpredictable portion of the game. It would still have RNG, but also still be predictable.
21 Oct 2019, 15:38 PM
#65
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 14:08 PMblancat



The Kv-8 has damage reduction passive, too much hp and burns AT-gun and Panzer Shrek infantry too quickly

Kv-8 is not problem to shrek because he have damage reduction and he melts AT infantry faster than Panzer Shrek fires

Pak gun cant stop the Kv-8 even with two of them, unless Pak gun uses a TWP

nowadays KV-8 is really hard to kill



The problem is not a single Shrek squad but multiple in 2vs2 and up. The KV8 is crazy vs Inf/AT-Guns because Shrek blobs are crazy vs tanks frontally. This is a negative interaction. 105mm is already next to useless vs Shrek blobs, because its damage output is nowhere near too KV8 and so it melts away too fast. KV8 on the other hand is still strong enough to force a shrek blob into retreat. And that is like it should be. I'm all in for nerfing KV-8 AND Shrek/Super Bazooka at the same time. Infantry held AT-weapons should only deal their deflection damage frontally. Ostwind gets easily penetrated by Super Bazooka too. Add in a Cover to Cover and the Ostwind is screwed frontally in no time.
21 Oct 2019, 16:09 PM
#66
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1279

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 14:08 PMblancat



The Kv-8 has damage reduction passive, too much hp and burns AT-gun and Panzer Shrek infantry too quickly

Kv-8 is not problem to shrek because he have damage reduction and he melts AT infantry faster than Panzer Shrek fires

Pak gun cant stop the Kv-8 even with two of them, unless Pak gun uses a TWP

nowadays KV-8 is really hard to kill


You can't build a tank?

Does your shrek blob have to melt everything, including the 140 fuel AI vehicle that someone bought to counter your shrek blob?
21 Oct 2019, 16:11 PM
#67
avatar of Maret

Posts: 565


The idea is to remove some of the frustrating elements of paying for a td/high armour unit and it not doing what you are paying for.

Medium AT has a good balance for how well it works, same with ligh at (as limited as it is) but once you amp up the scale things start to fall apart. You pay ~200 fuel for a tank that won't bounce anything is just as frustrating as buying a ~140 fuel hard counter that doesn't pan anything.

I'm looking for a reliability and predictability to the most unreliable and unpredictable portion of the game. It would still have RNG, but also still be predictable.


In fact, i think there is more good option - increase health pool of heavy tanks or damage reduction (like kv-1 have). If TD get decreased pen with deflection, it become very unreliable against heavies (buy 130 fuel TD without turret, potent against only mediums...not good choice). You couldn't rely on TD that have low chance to penetrate and instead deal small damage. How you supposed counter Panther with blietzkrieg? Only if, you don't want make from panther slow-moving unit, to compensate decreased penetration of TD. Problem that Axis have heavy armored rush units. That could easile outmaneuver your TD, easpecially on open maps.
IMHO, i prefer health-pool, because damage reduction only good for such units as kv-1 (low penetration and low mobility). Yea, in such case you need spend more time to repair, but i think it's better repair your tank neither build new one?
21 Oct 2019, 16:12 PM
#68
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6376 | Subs: 1



You can't build a tank?
...

Good luck trying to counter a KV-8 with a PzIV, PzIV J or PzIV H, unless you mean a Tiger.
21 Oct 2019, 16:16 PM
#69
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:12 PMVipper

Good luck trying to counter a KV-8 with a PzIV, PzIV J or PzIV H, unless you mean a Tiger.


PZIV is T3, KV8 is T4. But luckily you can counter the T4 KV8 with a single nondoctrinal T3 StuG.
21 Oct 2019, 16:20 PM
#70
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6376 | Subs: 1



PZIV is T3, KV8 is T4. But luckily you can counter the T4 KV8 with a single nondoctrinal T3 StuG.

And read again the comment I responded to:

"You can't build a tank? "
Stug is not a tank but a TD and one is simply not enough.

In addition Panzer J is a T4 as much as KV-8 is.

KV-8 should simply be cheaper (around 100-120) and less lethal.
21 Oct 2019, 16:21 PM
#71
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1071



PZIV is T3, KV8 is T4. But luckily you can counter the T4 KV8 with a single nondoctrinal T3 StuG.


Ost T4 costs more to tech to than Sov T4. Only Ost has a true T4 that is actually expensive to tech to.
21 Oct 2019, 16:23 PM
#72
avatar of Maret

Posts: 565

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:20 PMVipper

And read again the comment I responded to:

"You can't build a tank? "
Stug is not a tank but a TD and one is simply not enough.

1 stug don't counter kv-8 and 1 su-85 don't counter panther. You always need support in both cases. I say even more - kv-8 can't kill your stug, while panther can kill su-85.
21 Oct 2019, 16:23 PM
#73
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1279

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:12 PMVipper

Good luck trying to counter a KV-8 with a PzIV, PzIV J or PzIV H, unless you mean a Tiger.


Because you can take on a P4 J with a tank that does 80 damage with 50 pen? Time to kill any of those tanks would be all day.

Unless I'm playing with friends, I mostly play 2v2 OKW now. I can't remember the last time I saw a KV8, and don't ever remember having a problem with one.
21 Oct 2019, 16:31 PM
#74
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 785

All over; KV8 makes too much damage. Add some Penals with PTRS and there is no clear counter, only a real good mixed army and luck.

-> same as T34-MG makes too much DPS.
-> Maxim-spam becoming meta again.
-> KV2 is too effective too.

:P


21 Oct 2019, 16:35 PM
#75
avatar of blancat

Posts: 601



You can't build a tank?

Does your shrek blob have to melt everything, including the 140 fuel AI vehicle that someone bought to counter your shrek blob?



i checked KV-8 have no damage reduction, my mistake

21 Oct 2019, 16:42 PM
#76
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6376 | Subs: 1



Because you can take on a P4 J with a tank that does 80 damage with 50 pen? Time to kill any of those tanks would be all day.

Unless I'm playing with friends, I mostly play 2v2 OKW now. I can't remember the last time I saw a KV8, and don't ever remember having a problem with one.

1) Check you stat penetration values of KV-8 is not 50 but 140/80/60.

2) PzIV firing at KV-8 max range will need above 2 minute of firing before killing, maybe in your book that counts as an effective counter but not in mine.
21 Oct 2019, 16:50 PM
#77
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:42 PMVipper
1) Check you stat penetration values of KV-8 is not 50 but 140/80/60.


If that's true that should be reverted.

The KV-8 is a KV-1 with the 76mm gun swapped out for the T-70's little 45mm.

It should NOT have better penetration than the KV-1, which is literally the same tank with a bigger gun.
21 Oct 2019, 16:59 PM
#78
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:20 PMVipper

And read again the comment I responded to:

"You can't build a tank? "
Stug is not a tank but a TD and one is simply not enough.

In addition Panzer J is a T4 as much as KV-8 is.

KV-8 should simply be cheaper (around 100-120) and less lethal.


I read it and I'm pretty sure he meant that too as he said tank (the StuG even has the chassis of PZIII). And if you want to bee desperately historical correct than please don't say TD but Sturmgeschütz or Assault Gun.

One is not enough? Lets ignore superior range. Luckily you should have at least two StuGs or a combo of StuG + PZIV when he brings out his KV8.

PZIV J: That doesn't changes anything about PZIV beeing T3. Its only one variant and you surely still don't build it to counter KV8. As Ostheer build StuG, as OKW build JPIV. PZIV is an allrounder.
21 Oct 2019, 17:00 PM
#79
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 785

The problem is, that KV2 has no need for its gun. It is beetter to remove it.
21 Oct 2019, 17:02 PM
#80
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 339

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2019, 16:50 PMLago


If that's true that should be reverted.

The KV-8 is a KV-1 with the 76mm gun swapped out for the T-70's little 45mm.

It should NOT have better penetration than the T-34/76 and KV-1. That's atrocious visual language.


It was changed because KV8 was never build in 1vs1. Before it couldn't really do anything vs PZIV so it had no place in the meta. You still have to change the weapon. Its not like the Churchill which shoots with both weapons.
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