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russian armor

Stug Vet

16 Oct 2019, 17:32 PM
#1
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511

This idea was brought up in another thread by Elchino:


What IF, we swap vet2/vet3 on the Stug.

Give the higher Rof boost and mobility sooner and leave the armor (which is mostly irrelevant for the Stug) and smaller RoF as vet 3.


I think this at minimum is a very good idea, going further I suggested we change the armor buff to health

Now instead of going from 140 armor to 182 at vet 2, it goes from 560 health to 720 at vet 3

The Stug had it's reload time nerfed relatively recently, so I think that part of the change is more clearly good than the part I added, which seems more debatable
16 Oct 2019, 18:17 PM
#2
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3963

could work but i would rework the vet 1 too, make it like heat rounds
16 Oct 2019, 20:20 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1

I agree that would an improvement and I have actually made a similar suggestion a long time ago. On the other hand the armor bonus is almost pointless on stug as you point out HP is far better.

One could try either HP or smaller target. I would also replace vet 1 ability since it is redundant.

One could try camo as a vet 1 ability:

Now this would work a bit like the soviet one. The ability would cloak the stug. Movement would break the camo but the unit would be able to rotate. Once cloaked the unit would get +5 vision +20 rotation.
16 Oct 2019, 20:26 PM
#4
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 20:20 PMVipper

One could try either HP or smaller target. I would also replace vet 1 ability since it is redundant.


Oh didn't even think of target size that could work as well

I'm also good with replacing the vet 1, wit either idea that was posted. I think im leaning a little more towards camo since Ost doesn't have any AT capable of camoflauge iirc, just lots of squads

Edit: You can put ambush camo on shreck squads I guess, but still seems appropriate for an assault gun
17 Oct 2019, 00:31 AM
#5
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3211 | Subs: 1

I like it.
17 Oct 2019, 17:27 PM
#6
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Swapping vet 2 and 3 is a good idea. Don't feel armor bonus should be replaced with lower target size or extra health, it already got buffed in both those aspects in recent patches. Furthermore, it would make the skirt bonus inconsistent with other tanks.

It's not like 182 armor (skirt bonus) and 17 target size aren't enough survivability for a 90 fuel tank.
17 Oct 2019, 17:39 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1

Swapping vet 2 and 3 is a good idea. Don't feel armor bonus should be replaced with lower target size or extra health, it already got buffed in both those aspects in recent patches. Furthermore, it would make the skirt bonus inconsistent with other tanks.

It's not like 182 armor (skirt bonus) and 17 target size aren't enough survivability for a 90 fuel tank.

"Skirt bonus consistency" has little bearing on a balance issues like vet bonuses. One can completely remove them or have the unit start with them or turn into a doctrinal ability.



Vet bonuses consistency across units with different roles is also flawed concept. Vet bonus should help a unit fulfill the role it has been designed for and thus custom made for each unit individually.

Actually the game desperately needs an veterancy overhaul including XP values, vet 1 abilities and vet bonuses.
17 Oct 2019, 18:06 PM
#8
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511



It's not like 182 armor (skirt bonus) and 17 target size aren't enough survivability for a 90 fuel tank.


Well it's not like we're adding survivability on top of that. The 182 armor would be gone

The reasoning is that 182 armor only helps you a little against mediums, which are very capable of flanking/circling a stug and negating the bonus anyway

It's also exceedingly difficult to get a vet 3 stug as is, but maybe that's in just in comparison to allied TDs which are some of the easiest units to vet up in the game
17 Oct 2019, 22:47 PM
#9
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Well I don't think Stug needs any survivability change:

- It's target size and rotation rate already got a buff recently.
- The armor helps it against mediums, which is what the Stug is supposed to counter mainly.

I don't think vet 3 is that hard to get if you use it conservatively, it's just that the Stug is a very good tank for uptrading, similar to the M10. Also, people often get it when behind or when they need an emergency measure against heavies, which means they don't tend to last that long.

I do think mobility helps it (much) more than armor, so I wouldn't mind vet 3 and vet 2 bonus getting swapped.
18 Oct 2019, 01:20 AM
#10
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3211 | Subs: 1

Well I don't think Stug needs any survivability change:

- It's target size and rotation rate already got a buff recently.
- The armor helps it against mediums, which is what the Stug is supposed to counter mainly.

I don't think vet 3 is that hard to get if you use it conservatively, it's just that the Stug is a very good tank for uptrading, similar to the M10. Also, people often get it when behind or when they need an emergency measure against heavies, which means they don't tend to last that long.

I do think mobility helps it (much) more than armor, so I wouldn't mind vet 3 and vet 2 bonus getting swapped.


yea tbh i think across the board id rather traits that actively make a unit more survivable would be better served at vet 2 and passive improvements at vet 3. that way at vet 2 the unit skill cap raises and by vet 3 you have earned the ability to let the unit sort of take care of ir self a bit better if that makes sense..
18 Oct 2019, 03:27 AM
#11
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511


I do think mobility helps it (much) more than armor, so I wouldn't mind vet 3 and vet 2 bonus getting swapped.


Fair enough, that seems valid to me
18 Oct 2019, 07:07 AM
#12
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1071

I think we should make a poll on the vet 1 bonus being AP rounds because TWP is a literal piece of garbage. You'd rather fire normally because it takes forever to load. Relic/bal team nerfed it to shit and left it there.
18 Oct 2019, 14:16 PM
#13
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2718

I think we should make a poll on the vet 1 bonus being AP rounds because TWP is a literal piece of garbage. You'd rather fire normally because it takes forever to load. Relic/bal team nerfed it to shit and left it there.


That or some sort of HE shot.
18 Oct 2019, 15:50 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6307 | Subs: 1

I think we should make a poll on the vet 1 bonus being AP rounds because TWP is a literal piece of garbage. You'd rather fire normally because it takes forever to load. Relic/bal team nerfed it to shit and left it there.


You can get rid of the blind and main weapon disable and just extend the time it gives 100% penetration. It's already called HEAT shell.
18 Oct 2019, 16:27 PM
#15
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1



You can get rid of the blind and main weapon disable and just extend the time it gives 100% penetration. It's already called HEAT shell.


Cool idea.

+100% penetration for multiple shots might be a bit too much though, compared to similar abilities. +40-50% would be better.

What should be done with Stug E's vet 1 ability you think?
18 Oct 2019, 16:45 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6375 | Subs: 1



Cool idea.

+100% penetration for multiple shots might be a bit too much though, compared to similar abilities. +40-50% would be better.

What should be done with Stug E's vet 1 ability you think?

Agreed 100% seem a bit too much.

On the other hand I would rather see stationary camo on stug as a vet 1 ability.


I would try hollow charge AT rounds with low damage penetration maybe some deflection damage.
The unit is a bit expensive for an AI only unit and imo should be able to defend it self vs light tanks.
18 Oct 2019, 18:46 PM
#17
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6307 | Subs: 1



Cool idea.

+100% penetration for multiple shots might be a bit too much though, compared to similar abilities. +40-50% would be better.

What should be done with Stug E's vet 1 ability you think?

Giving it some thought, yeah 100% it's high, but that's what it currently is but only for 1 shot.

50% sounds reasonable (it should be around AP Jackson minus the damage), it depends on how many times the Stug should be able to fire. My point is, that people tend to overlook the penetration buff, cause it's forces a reload first to do a small impact disable.
Giving it +5s for a total of 15s, you could get around 2 shots with ample margin. At vet2 (if vet is swapped), you would be shooting 4 times.
18 Oct 2019, 22:19 PM
#18
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149


Giving it some thought, yeah 100% it's high, but that's what it currently is but only for 1 shot.

50% sounds reasonable (it should be around AP Jackson minus the damage), it depends on how many times the Stug should be able to fire. My point is, that people tend to overlook the penetration buff, cause it's forces a reload first to do a small impact disable.
Giving it +5s for a total of 15s, you could get around 2 shots with ample margin. At vet2 (if vet is swapped), you would be shooting 4 times.

You guys realize that Stug is 280MP and 90FU? Why are you trying to make it pen vehicles like Pershing, Comet, Churchill, KV family and IS2 reliably? It's cheaper than T34/76 that is the only stock medium in SOV lineup. If you want high pen you can always build a Panther.
18 Oct 2019, 22:42 PM
#19
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 837

I think the vet 1 ability for the Stug G should be changed to 30 muni self repair of 40% health. It would help faction repairs a lot and make the Stug a better choice as the cheap TD that also is more self sufficient.
18 Oct 2019, 22:56 PM
#20
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1511


You guys realize that Stug is 280MP and 90FU? Why are you trying to make it pen vehicles like Pershing, Comet, Churchill, KV family and IS2 reliably? It's cheaper than T34/76 that is the only stock medium in SOV lineup. If you want high pen you can always build a Panther.


It's a 1 shot vet 1 ability, not a buff the to default fire. The m10 costs the same amount of fuel and can fire HVAP for 30 seconds, doesn't seem like a tall order
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