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russian armor

Stug Vet

18 Oct 2019, 23:12 PM
#21
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 149



It's a 1 shot vet 1 ability, not a buff the to default fire. The m10 costs the same amount of fuel and can fire HVAP for 30 seconds, doesn't seem like a tall order

Per comments above, the Stug penetration bonus would last for up to 4 shots, which is plenty.

M10 is doctrinal costs 80FU which is dirt cheap, but it can bounce shots on vet 0 OST P4 and it fights targets that commonly run about 230+ armour. It's more of a cheap unreliable tank destroyer that also takes a commander slot. It's decent for its cost as medium repellent and good for suicidal attacks on enemy rocket arty.

In other words allies can pick a cheap doctrinal TD that can fight axis stock vehicles, while Wehr would like to build stock cheap TD that can fight allied doctrinal heavies.
18 Oct 2019, 23:33 PM
#22
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 130

IMO wher would like to build a TD that can fight allied heavies.

I don't think anyone really cares about the price point of the stug, and would much prefer a better unit that costs more.

A cheap casemate with few uses simply isn't worth the micro.
19 Oct 2019, 00:53 AM
#23
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1537


M10 is doctrinal costs 80FU which is dirt cheap, but it can bounce shots on vet 0 OST P4 and it fights targets that commonly run about 230+ armour.


It also has a turret and much much better manueverability, allowing it to flank most of those 230+ targets and ignore that armor value altogether

The stug has zero chance of hitting rear armor unless an allied player has really made a mess of things
19 Oct 2019, 01:57 AM
#24
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6313 | Subs: 1


Per comments above, the Stug penetration bonus would last for up to 4 shots, which is plenty.

M10 is doctrinal costs 80FU which is dirt cheap, but it can bounce shots on vet 0 OST P4 and it fights targets that commonly run about 230+ armour. It's more of a cheap unreliable tank destroyer that also takes a commander slot. It's decent for its cost as medium repellent and good for suicidal attacks on enemy rocket arty.

In other words allies can pick a cheap doctrinal TD that can fight axis stock vehicles, while Wehr would like to build stock cheap TD that can fight allied doctrinal heavies.


That's on perfect conditions on which the Stug can keep the target in sight and shoot non stop at vet2, after receiving the reload buff (only if the swap change i propose makes it).

The funny thing is that i had the M10/57mm AT gun in mind when changing the ability. The duration now is 10s, 1 shot, 100% pen buff, 5s disable. Which requires a reload cycle of 5s, for an effective 5s timeframe till vet3.
The M10/Jackson both last 25s. Jacksons give smaller pen/acc and +40dmg and the M10 gains 40% pen / 30% acc. The 57mm AT gun is 50% pen at 30s duration.

At 15s, it would only be able to shoot 2x times till it get RoF buffs. It COULD shoot 4x times with a really short time frame or more realistically 3 times.

19 Oct 2019, 02:06 AM
#25
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 130

Just throwing this out there.

I think the stug in it's current iteration could fit in t2 quite easily.

It's quite vulnerable to infantry, and doesn't have much damage potential anyways.

Light vehicles can outmanuver them quite well, but the stug in that phase gives OST a fighting chance while opening up an easier path to t4.

Historically it's a infantry support vehicle, and so it would make more sense in the infantry heavy phase of the game than in the armored.
19 Oct 2019, 04:33 AM
#26
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4492

Just throwing this out there.

I think the stug in it's current iteration could fit in t2 quite easily.

It's quite vulnerable to infantry, and doesn't have much damage potential anyways.

Light vehicles can outmanuver them quite well, but the stug in that phase gives OST a fighting chance while opening up an easier path to t4.

Historically it's a infantry support vehicle, and so it would make more sense in the infantry heavy phase of the game than in the armored.


I think a 7 minute StuG is a bit too quick. If they do that it should at least require Battlephase 2 to be researched. And heck, put the Panzerwerfer in T3 and have it require Battlephase 3. Then Ostheer has a consistently staggered tech that started with Panzergrenadiers.
19 Oct 2019, 04:52 AM
#27
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 130



I think a 7 minute StuG is a bit too quick. If they do that it should at least require Battlephase 2 to be researched. And heck, put the Panzerwerfer in T3 and have it require Battlephase 3. Then Ostheer has a consistently staggered tech that started with Panzergrenadiers.


What's too quick about it? It's a slightly more mobile, but otherwise worse AT gun which is available in the same time-frame, and building it would delay the p4 by quite a bit.

Pgrens could go to tier three with some sort of buff that would give OST a viable infantry late-game.
rqd
19 Oct 2019, 05:14 AM
#28
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

Just throwing this out there.

I think the stug in it's current iteration could fit in t2 quite easily.

It's quite vulnerable to infantry, and doesn't have much damage potential anyways.

Light vehicles can outmanuver them quite well, but the stug in that phase gives OST a fighting chance while opening up an easier path to t4.

Historically it's a infantry support vehicle, and so it would make more sense in the infantry heavy phase of the game than in the armored.


Stug in t2? Then it will become a 120 damage per shot unit with 400 hp like su76. And for balance fuel cost decrease to 70 lol
19 Oct 2019, 05:39 AM
#29
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4492

What's too quick about it? It's a slightly more mobile, but otherwise worse AT gun which is available in the same time-frame, and building it would delay the p4 by quite a bit.

Pgrens could go to tier three with some sort of buff that would give OST a viable infantry late-game.
jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2019, 05:14 AMrqd
Stug in t2? Then it will become a 120 damage per shot unit with 400 hp like su76. And for balance fuel cost decrease to 70 lol


Yeah pretty much this, if you want to deploy the StuG when the T-70 or M5 Stuart are hitting the field, then it's gonna need to take a hit to it's strength and end up looking about like the SU-76 without the barrage. That's why I suggested the earliest should be BP2 researched, so it'll come a bit later.
19 Oct 2019, 06:42 AM
#30
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 130

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2019, 05:14 AMrqd


Stug in t2? Then it will become a 120 damage per shot unit with 400 hp like su76. And for balance fuel cost decrease to 70 lol


Why does it need to be changed again? It has no AI potential whatsoever. An M3 does more damage than a bare stug, and adding the top gunner only puts it on par with an m20.



Yeah pretty much this, if you want to deploy the StuG when the T-70 or M5 Stuart are hitting the field, then it's gonna need to take a hit to it's strength and end up looking about like the SU-76 without the barrage. That's why I suggested the earliest should be BP2 researched, so it'll come a bit later.


Both USF and Soviets have good infantry AT options, and a single AT squad can easily beat a stug. Brits have AEC. The stug does nothing other than AT, and all the light vehicles can handily out-maneuver it while chipping in some damage. A single AT gun can also hard counter the stug.

Should m20 stuart/t-70/AEC really be the completely brain-dead options they are against OST for the sole reason the army has no effective counter?

At it's current position Stug is barely used.

I think it's only ever going to see regular play as a t2 vehicle, or it's redesigned. Make it weaker but give it good veterancy scaling if need be.
19 Oct 2019, 06:49 AM
#31
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

I dont want Stug at T2, i just want Stug to do better against Allies armor.

TWP sucks
Pen sucks with no vet.

The outdated idea that Stug is to deal with medium allies is flawed. Allies are faster/more accuracy on move. There is no room for Stug at 50 range non-turret, even worse once 60TD hits field.

Stug is only useful for back tech to supplement against IS/KV and Churchill. Supplement because Panther are overworked against heavy Allies armor. Supplement because you expect 50/50 chance you will throw the stug to get enough hit for Panther to hopefully move in, stop-stop to kill.

As such i think Stug is too expensive and/or cost inefficient
19 Oct 2019, 06:50 AM
#32
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 701

I think a recent buff to Stug was to upgrade its pintle performance. Imo thats a great FU throw to you Wehr beggers.

Like why even bothered the same way as 5Fuel Jackson nerf.
rqd
19 Oct 2019, 07:03 AM
#33
avatar of rqd

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2019, 06:49 AMmrgame2
I dont want Stug at T2, i just want Stug to do better against Allies armor.

TWP sucks
Pen sucks with no vet.

The outdated idea that Stug is to deal with medium allies is flawed. Allies are faster/more accuracy on move. There is no room for Stug at 50 range non-turret, even worse once 60TD hits field.

Stug is only useful for back tech to supplement against IS/KV and Churchill. Supplement because Panther are overworked against heavy Allies armor. Supplement because you expect 50/50 chance you will throw the stug to get enough hit for Panther to hopefully move in, stop-stop to kill.

As such i think Stug is too expensive and/or cost inefficient


What about revert the rof nerf? Decrease the reload by 0.5s will be good since pre-nerf they reload 1 sec faster and are really op at trading shots.
19 Oct 2019, 07:21 AM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13775 | Subs: 7

IMO wher would like to build a TD that can fight allied heavies.

Its called elephant.
If they want it stock, panther has to go.
19 Oct 2019, 07:33 AM
#35
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 130

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2019, 07:21 AMKatitof

Its called elephant.
If they want it stock, panther has to go.

Not really an option in 1v1 but it's a fair point. I'd prefer the stug shows up earlier instead of buffing it for late game when the panther and heavies take over.

Ost has a t-70/stuart sized hole around the 10 minute mark.
19 Oct 2019, 08:52 AM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6401 | Subs: 1

PLS no more earlier units.

Actually its about time the pace of unit is delayed to increase window of opportunity and the length of each stage of the game.

Units are being buff thru the roof so that they will be worth using for 1-2 before their hard counter comes out.
19 Oct 2019, 09:21 AM
#37
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3971


Per comments above, the Stug penetration bonus would last for up to 4 shots, which is plenty.

M10 is doctrinal costs 80FU which is dirt cheap, but it can bounce shots on vet 0 OST P4 and it fights targets that commonly run about 230+ armour. It's more of a cheap unreliable tank destroyer that also takes a commander slot. It's decent for its cost as medium repellent and good for suicidal attacks on enemy rocket arty.

In other words allies can pick a cheap doctrinal TD that can fight axis stock vehicles, while Wehr would like to build stock cheap TD that can fight allied doctrinal heavies.
nah allies already have stock TD that deal with both medium and heavy easily
19 Oct 2019, 15:37 PM
#38
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1537

nah allies already have stock TD that deal with both medium and heavy easily


He said cheap TDs, it's literally in the part you underlined. And he wasn't even asking for stock m10 so idk what your point is here
______

T2 stug would be a little weird. At most I would give it similar treatment to pgrens, put in the HQ and lock behind BP2
19 Oct 2019, 16:34 PM
#39
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207



He said cheap TDs, it's literally in the part you underlined. And he wasn't even asking for stock m10 so idk what your point is here


The Jackson is an absolute bargin for its performance even if it isn't technically cheap. Plus the Firefly was made cheaper even though pretty much nobody considered it underpowered.
19 Oct 2019, 17:00 PM
#40
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 344

I'd rather to see stug the stug with 120 damage 60 range.Price difference between SU76 would make it for the survivability.
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