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russian armor

Stug Vet

19 Oct 2019, 17:26 PM
#41
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1474


The Jackson is an absolute bargin for its performance even if it isn't technically cheap. Plus the Firefly was made cheaper even though pretty much nobody considered it underpowered.


They're not cheap. That's all I said. Stick to the topic please. They certainly aren't cheap compared to stug

I was comparing it to m10 to begin with, which costs the same fuel as stug
20 Oct 2019, 11:50 AM
#42
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2019, 17:00 PMJilet
I'd rather to see stug the stug with 120 damage 60 range.Price difference between SU76 would make it for the survivability.


Range 60 is the way to go imo. Details can be polished (more/less damage; rof; pen; etc). 60 range on some stock unit is a must for ost.

The problem is that bazooka squads and snares are really lethal for such vehicles because they must close on too much to the front line. Infantry AT together with anti tank guns melted stugs too quickly in real combat scenarios. Stugs only work when your opponent overextends. Remeber that now we have elite bazookas, for example. So I completely agree with range 60.
20 Oct 2019, 13:47 PM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13678 | Subs: 7



Range 60 is the way to go imo. Details can be polished (more/less damage; rof; pen; etc). 60 range on some stock unit is a must for ost.

The problem is that bazooka squads and snares are really lethal for such vehicles because they must close on too much to the front line. Infantry AT together with anti tank guns melted stugs too quickly in real combat scenarios. Stugs only work when your opponent overextends. Remeber that now we have elite bazookas, for example. So I completely agree with range 60.

Its not offensive frontline breakthrough unit.
If there is AT inf by it, your line collapsed.
20 Oct 2019, 17:02 PM
#44
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2019, 13:47 PMKatitof

Its not offensive frontline breakthrough unit.
If there is AT inf by it, your line collapsed.


It's not what I mean. At guns have 60 range. Stugs must close in to 50 range to shoot at allied tanks, which makes them voulnerable to anti tank guns' fire. Those anti tank guns can sit behind infantry and still soot at stugs.

With allied tank destroyers it is different. They have the same range as pak. So paks must be closer to the front line to shoot at them. Since allied tank destroyers hide behind a wall of infantry ostheer paks are often more easily decrewed. Same with stugs. They absorb more shots before they can even start shooting at their targets. That is imbalance. It is also part of the reason why, for example, scotts ar so OP. They can shoot at 4 men squads and no ostheer vehicle can shoot at them from the range of 60. Paks can't chase a vehicle. generally stug must be 60 for the gameplay to make sense.
20 Oct 2019, 17:30 PM
#45
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779

I would like to see more range, also a new overwork of scope and hull-down.

-> Since hull-down has lost a mainreason of it (faster fire) there is no real use for it. The hole commander ability should be removed, nobody is using it, only Ostwind really benefits of it. Maybe change it to StuG E for all two commanders?

-> Scope can become a 222 only and non-doc ability (remove the detector), so the 222 becomes a sence anymore. Change Scope to trenches like in Osttruppen-Commander.

StuG G:
- Giving StuG a non-doc camouflage immobile range-ability to 62,5 range (same range buff as in current hull-down) with +1000 pen for first shot out of camouflage. Like Jagdpanzer IV but without the ability to move.
- Vet1 one high exposive shot on target (power of sherman HE)



20 Oct 2019, 19:52 PM
#46
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635

I would like to see more range, also a new overwork of scope and hull-down.

-> Since hull-down has lost a mainreason of it (faster fire) there is no real use for it. The hole commander ability should be removed, nobody is using it, only Ostwind really benefits of it. Maybe change it to StuG E for all two commanders?

-> Scope can become a 222 only and non-doc ability (remove the detector), so the 222 becomes a sence anymore. Change Scope to trenches like in Osttruppen-Commander.

StuG G:
- Giving StuG a non-doc camouflage immobile range-ability to 62,5 range (same range buff as in current hull-down) with +1000 pen for first shot out of camouflage. Like Jagdpanzer IV but without the ability to move.
- Vet1 one high exposive shot on target (power of sherman HE)





What if hull down was stock possible for stug and increased range to 60?
20 Oct 2019, 20:59 PM
#47
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 723



What if hull down was stock possible for stug and increased range to 60?


It doesn’t have much horizontal gun depression, so it wouldn’t be very useful.
20 Oct 2019, 21:16 PM
#48
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779



What if hull down was stock possible for stug and increased range to 60?


The hull-down ability never was really useful, there was a short time StuG was kind of good, because of the reload buff in combo of the stock reload, but that is years ago. German tanks in hull-down are like sitting dugs.

If StuG gets more range in a handy-cap way, it is only fair.

An other way to balance StuG would be, to give Jackson and Firefly a range nerf while driving. Say 50 when on the move, 60 when stationary for 1sec. So they become more difficult to play and StuGs range handy-cap becomes less massive.

Same for Elefant and Jagdtiger, Jagdpanzer 4 and SU67.

SU85 stays 60 if activate focus-sight, 50 if it deactivates it.

Edit: That woumd be a good way to balance actual 3vs3 and 4vs4. Before someone stats trolling, lets try it out. It is easy to mod it.
20 Oct 2019, 21:25 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6275 | Subs: 1


....
An other way to balance StuG would be, to give Jackson and Firefly a range nerf while driving. Say 50 when on the move, 60 when stationary for 1sec. So they become more difficult to play and StuGs range handy-cap becomes less massive.

Same for Elefant and Jagdtiger, Jagdpanzer 4 and SU67.
...


Elehant, Jagtiger and ISU-152 will not fire on move at all...

Imo the problem lays with high accuracy of the TDs at range 60, many of them reach chance to hit close or even above 100% even vs kubel.

The effectiveness of the units at max range should go down and that might include lowering accuracy and increasing reload.
20 Oct 2019, 21:30 PM
#50
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2019, 21:25 PMVipper


Elehant, Jagtiger and ISU-152 will not fire on move at all...

Imo the problem lay with high accuracy of the TDs at range 60, many of them reach chance to hit close or even above 100% even vs kubel.

The effectiveness of the units at max range should go down and that might include lowering accuracy and increasing reload.


Not only that. A massive problem is the range + accuracy.

Elefant an Jagdtiger will rotate, that should be their weak-point. They can also be overworked, to be stationary to shoot.
20 Oct 2019, 21:54 PM
#51
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635



It doesn’t have much horizontal gun depression, so it wouldn’t be very useful.


I know but at least it would be sth allied centered players would agree to...
20 Oct 2019, 21:57 PM
#52
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635



The hull-down ability never was really useful, there was a short time StuG was kind of good, because of the reload buff in combo of the stock reload, but that is years ago. German tanks in hull-down are like sitting dugs.

If StuG gets more range in a handy-cap way, it is only fair.

An other way to balance StuG would be, to give Jackson and Firefly a range nerf while driving. Say 50 when on the move, 60 when stationary for 1sec. So they become more difficult to play and StuGs range handy-cap becomes less massive.

Same for Elefant and Jagdtiger, Jagdpanzer 4 and SU67.

SU85 stays 60 if activate focus-sight, 50 if it deactivates it.

Edit: That woumd be a good way to balance actual 3vs3 and 4vs4. Before someone stats trolling, lets try it out. It is easy to mod it.


Agree completely. To be honest they should always have 50 range. So that at guns could be their natural counter. It would require more micro with armoured TD. It would be better for the game in general.
20 Oct 2019, 22:00 PM
#53
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2019, 21:25 PMVipper


Elehant, Jagtiger and ISU-152 will not fire on move at all...

Imo the problem lays with high accuracy of the TDs at range 60, many of them reach chance to hit close or even above 100% even vs kubel.

The effectiveness of the units at max range should go down and that might include lowering accuracy and increasing reload.


Exactly. There are 2 simultaneous problems. Accuracy and range. I would rather nerf range. But the otjer option makes sense too. I'm just a bit afraid nerfing accuracy may be too rng dependent.
20 Oct 2019, 22:01 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 635



Not only that. A massive problem is the range + accuracy.

Elefant an Jagdtiger will rotate, that should be their weak-point. They can also be overworked, to be stationary to shoot.


I like this idea. They could become a bit like AT guns with arc, for example.
21 Oct 2019, 11:56 AM
#55
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779



I like this idea. They could become a bit like AT guns with arc, for example.


I am on a small test-mod. I hope I can finish it in some hours.
21 Oct 2019, 12:01 PM
#56
avatar of Freestyler1992

Posts: 88

Hm, how would this work with spotting scopes? Because right now, with spotting scopes, my stugs laugh at everything that tries to come close to them lol. If they get better sooner, you know what will happen, stug with spotting scope spammerino.
21 Oct 2019, 12:06 PM
#57
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779

Hm, how would this work with spotting scopes? Because right now, with spotting scopes, my stugs laugh at everything that tries to come close to them lol. If they get better sooner, you know what will happen, stug with spotting scope spammerino.


I am for removing the scope as commander-ability. That is my wish for years. There are 2 commanders with scope, change it with something else, a new ability or an other one.

I am for giving 222 a non-doc scope, to make it more useful as stock unit. Maybe also nerfing it. Also German Pios MP40 should get get less max. range, so the unit can really benefit of its spoting-sight.
21 Oct 2019, 15:23 PM
#58
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 779

I made a small-test mod for my idea. It isn't finished, but everything I was able to do in that hours.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1562660350

Elefant:
- normal range from 70 to 60, reload nerfed * 1,25 to 11,5.
- added new ability to make it rotation only, range up to 70, gives 60 sight in a cone, relaod buff *0,75. Setup of 3sec, stop-time 3sec.

Jagdtiger:
- Rotation from 16 to 12. That is a very strong nerf, making it real difficult to use.

Jackson and Firefly:
- while moving the range is nerfed to 50 (maybe increase it to 52 - 55), stationary it is 60 again.

PLANED:
StuG G: a stock camouflage ability to increase to 60 range for first shot and 1000+ pen, making it comlete immobile while in this mode. b. maybe removing weak-point. ~~ Making StuG a hit and run unit.

StuG E: Change the weak-point with a hollow-charge ability. Giving it 30 range, low angle. Damage of bazzoka.

Jagdpanzer 4: when moving range to 50, in cammoflage and moving to 55, stationary to 60. (so it can't hunt SU85)

SU85: when moving range to 50, with focus sight to 60, same if normal stationary.

ISU turning from 16 to 14, to make it more fragil versus flanking.


Edit:
- Remove hull-down. Change it with StuG E.
- Remove scope. Replace it with trenches. -> Give 222 a upgrade for a weaker version of scope. non-doc. Reduce max. range of German-Pios to 25.
22 Oct 2019, 00:15 AM
#59
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 961 | Subs: 1

I use to love the stug back when it was a real cheap option to fight TDs. Double Stug working in tandem use to be excellent against allied TDs. I would like to keep that design in mind in making the stug good at fighting TDs/mediums.
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