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Jagdpanzer IV Refit

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16 Oct 2019, 16:31 PM
#21
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 265

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:16 PMLago
That's the thing though. A Panther can take on anything, and a Panzer IV can fall back to anti-infantry duty if it's got no mediums to club.

The Jagdpanzer IV is rarely the best pick. If you had the option to convert it to a lower RoF, higher pen gun, it'd be a safer pick.

I could say that building SU-85 in 2v2 preemptively assuming my enemy is going to build a PIV, PV, Brummbar or a Tiger is the same risk as for an OKW player to build a JPIV. If I build a T34/76 instead, I won't be able to deal with the armoured threat. The only SOV non-doc answer (that isn't a ZIS gun) to enemy armour is SU-85 and there are some horrible maps for 60 range casemate TDs like the ruins in Eindhoven (2v2). OKW does not need anyone feeling bad for them as they get all the tools in the game except for a sniper (though JLI come close). Having a good 60 range TD like a JP allows OKW to fend off enemy TDs and mediums. I think it fights TDs and mediums better than PIV and fights TDs better than Panther. Panther on the other hand fights heavy armour and infantry better than JP. Meanwhile PIV can fight mediums and bullies infantry. Each of these vehicles is better at something than the other one.


jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:16 PMLago
One second per shot.

That's an extra three seconds to kill a medium tank (as it doesn't reload the first shot).

In a game this fast, that's a big deal.

4.3 seconds to reload is about the same as the SU-85 or Jackson.

But with higher accuracy, higher penetration, lower cost (than Jackson), higher armour, higher health pool, etc. This change would affect teamgames significantly more than 1v1s. I think JPIV is in a good spot and should not be touched because balance is a fragile thing.
16 Oct 2019, 16:32 PM
#22
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2383 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:28 PMLago


Its gun is superior to Allied TDs against anything with less armour than a Churchill.


Fair point, I worded that poorly

But against anything sub 240 armour id rather just have a p4 and support it with a Rak. p4 can fight infantry like you said, and Rak is just a less rsiky AT investment
16 Oct 2019, 16:38 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8203 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:28 PMLago


Its gun is superior to Allied TDs against anything with less armour than a Churchill.

Survivability is a good point though. Maybe it'd be worth making the sidegrade cost 100 MP 40 FU instead.

That would make the JP4 cost (400/135 and 15 pop) 500/175 and I doubt it would be worth it. Keep in mind that the cost for the dozer upgrade is 50/20
16 Oct 2019, 16:52 PM
#24
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2335 | Subs: 5

I personally think the Jagdpanzer IV is fine, it's a damn good unit with great veterancy. In team games it fits quite perfectly into OKW as an alternative to the Panther for either large open maps or to counter Allied TDs. They are very good at supporting a Tiger/Tiger II from afar. For clustered/urban maps, or when facing high armor targets, there's the Panther. There's even the doctrinal HEAT shells to make it put out a ridiculous amount of DPM with high pen.

Some units are simply not viable in certain gamemodes (1v1) while being (very) good in others (team games). The Jagdpanzer IV and Tiger II are good examples of this. Can't really make it better for one mode without potentially breaking it in the other.
16 Oct 2019, 16:56 PM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3927 | Subs: 1

Interesting proposal. How would it interact with HEAT rounds?


Added: I do agree with sander though. The unit isn't really problematic it's just sort of niche
16 Oct 2019, 17:10 PM
#26
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1506

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 15:21 PMLago

I think this is a clever way to make the JPIV stack up better against the Panther without making it overpowering versus mediums or an automatic buy, and it does it in a strategically interesting way. Thoughts?


I play mostly 2's and 4's, not 1's so take this with a grain of salt. The change you're proposing wouldn't change anything for me. On a 4v4 map like Hill 400, the JP4 is already really good if you're one of the players that has to fight in the center, and is your only stock counter to Allied TD's. I'm always going to get one or two (depending on whether I have a JT or not. If I have to defend the cut or fuel, I'll get Panthers because flanking or being flanked is much more likely and the JP4 is never going to have a turret. It's similar in a 2v2 like Eindhoven where I'd always want a turret around the right side fuel.
16 Oct 2019, 17:17 PM
#27
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

I could say that building SU-85 in 2v2 preemptively assuming my enemy is going to build a PIV, PV, Brummbar or a Tiger is the same risk as for an OKW player to build a JPIV.


Except it isn't.

The SU-85 will work against any armoured vehicle.

The JPIV is not very effective against high armour vehicles.
16 Oct 2019, 17:22 PM
#28
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

Interesting proposal. How would it interact with HEAT rounds?


Added: I do agree with sander though. The unit isn't really problematic it's just sort of niche


It's very niche.

The core concept here is a sidegrade that shifts the JPIV from a high damage, low pen tank destroyer into a lower damage, higher pen tank destroyer. I've proposed numbers, but you could always tweak them.

You could make similar refit upgrades for other units that only work well in one mode.


16 Oct 2019, 17:31 PM
#29
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2335 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 17:22 PMLago
The core concept here is a sidegrade that shifts the JPIV from a high damage, low pen tank destroyer into a lower damage, higher pen tank destroyer.


Would that really change anything, though? A lower damage, high pen tank destroyer is exactly what the Panther is. There would still be not much of a reason to build a Jagdpanzer IV for that purpose, because the Panther has a lot more advantages with its turret, higher mobility and higher durability for only a slightly higher cost.

What makes the Jagdpanzer IV attractive is its higher range, high accuracy, and (with vet) very high DPM compared to the Panther, which makes it an excellent alternative in large team games maps or when facing multiple Allied TDs, or when supporting a heavy tank.
16 Oct 2019, 17:35 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8203 | Subs: 1

I personally think the Jagdpanzer IV is fine, it's a damn good unit with great veterancy. ...

vet bonus: (if I have not missed anything)

Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V)
1) Unlocks the 'Cautious Movement' ability
2) +25% HP +20% accuracy
3) +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, -10% reload
4) -15% reload, +15% accuracy
5) For first shot fired out of camouflage x125% damage & x125% accuracy & x125% penetration

for comparison reason:
SU-85 Medium Tank Destroyer
Unlocks the 'Tracking' ability
+30% penetration, +30% accuracy
-20% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration


M36 'Jackson' Tank Destroyer
Unlocks the 'HVAP' ability
+30% accuracy, -20% reload
-15% reload, +30% penetration

Sherman Vc 'Firefly'
acceleration + 15%
-25% reload, Weapon rotation+ 35%
Accuracy +30%, +40 Damage

So imo a vet 3 JP 4 has inferior bonus to a vet 3 SU-85 to M36 I would even go so far to say even to FF.

(edited)
16 Oct 2019, 17:37 PM
#31
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2383 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 17:35 PMVipper

So imo a vet 3 JP 4 has inferior bonus to a vet 3 SU-85 to M36 I would even go so far to say even to FF.


What about trading it's vet 2 HP bonus for a pen buff? Seems odd that it gets zero pen buffs outside vet 5 ambush bonus
16 Oct 2019, 17:42 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8203 | Subs: 1



What about trading it's vet 2 HP bonus for a pen buff? Seems odd that it gets zero pen buffs outside vet 5 ambush bonus

I personally find the high frontal armor and HP not worth the extra cost and pop for the unit.

The unit can easily be circle strafed due to horrible rotation by medium and the high armor make little difference vs allied TDs. It will win vs most of them in 1vs1 static fight but not because of its armor.

I will return to my original post, one has to decided what this unit is supposed to counter and then give that stat and vet bonuses in order to fulfill that role.

If the unit is meant to counter heavies and super heavies than yea penetration would be more suited than HP as vet 2 bonus.

I also have to point out that in my experience the camo mode seem to be bugged and the unit some times will not autofire vs enemy vehicles
16 Oct 2019, 17:45 PM
#33
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

Would that really change anything, though? A lower damage, high pen tank destroyer is exactly what the Panther is. There would still be not much of a reason to build a Jagdpanzer IV for that purpose, because the Panther has a lot more advantages with its turret, higher mobility and higher durability for only a slightly higher cost.

What makes the Jagdpanzer IV attractive is its higher range, high accuracy, and (with vet) very high DPM compared to the Panther, which makes it an excellent alternative in large team games maps or when facing multiple Allied TDs, or when supporting a heavy tank.


You don't build a Jagdpanzer IV for that purpose.

You convert the Jagdpanzer IV you already have for that purpose.

The Jagdpanzer IV risks being rendered ineffective by a shift in the enemy force composition towards heavy armour. The Panzer IV and Panther do not face the same risk: the Panzer IV is a competent anti-infantry unit and the Panther has high enough penetration to face just about anything.

The StuG has a similar problem, but it at least has the saving grace of being dirt cheap and having some anti-infantry capability.


The core concept of this proposal is to allow you to refit JPIVs to fight heavies, but you trade away their core strength (high RoF against mediums) to do it.
16 Oct 2019, 17:47 PM
#34
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2265



I agree with this, so what do you think about swithcable shells? Then you could just directly alter its survivability

Which as Ive said, I think it only has that because its gun is shit compared to allied TDs which have less durability but better guns

I think that fits better the OKW theme to not be able to adapt so much, i mean, switchable shells are something you choose based on the enemies you face, more enemies, low pen higher ROF, and vice versa.

A single 60 mun burf (nerf+buff) to allow JPIV to transition into a later gamer stage seems fine.
16 Oct 2019, 17:48 PM
#35
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:38 PMVipper
Keep in mind that the cost for the dozer upgrade is 50/20


The dozer upgrade is an abomination and I'm not going to base any of my decision-making off it.
16 Oct 2019, 17:55 PM
#36
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2383 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 17:42 PMVipper

I personally find the high frontal armor and HP not worth the extra cost and pop for the unit.


Yes I agree. It's interesting because it's different, but not necessarily what you want a TD to get with vet
16 Oct 2019, 18:14 PM
#37
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

really good armour for a TD


In which situations is its Armour is of benefit?

Against mediums you should've built a p4 or panther and should be out ranging them anyways

Against TDs its armour doesnt protect it from allied high pen TDs

As far as as I can tell, its only true purpose is to deflect hits from Su76s at AT guns 15% of the time.
16 Oct 2019, 18:20 PM
#38
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4297

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 17:35 PMVipper

vet bonus: (if I have not missed anything)

Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V)
1) Unlocks the 'Cautious Movement' ability
2) +25% HP +20% accuracy
3) +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, -10% reload
4) -15% reload, +15% accuracy
5) For first shot fired out of camouflage +25% damage & +25% accuracy & +25% penetration

for comparison reason:
SU-85 Medium Tank Destroyer
Unlocks the 'Tracking' ability
+30% penetration, +30% accuracy
-20% reload, +20% rotation speed, +20% speed, +20% ac/de-celeration


M36 'Jackson' Tank Destroyer
Unlocks the 'HVAP' ability
+30% accuracy, -20% reload
-15% reload, +30% penetration

Sherman Vc 'Firefly'
acceleration + 15%
-25% reload, Weapon rotation+ 35%
Accuracy +30%, +40 Damage

So imo a vet 3 JP 4 has inferior bonus to a vet 3 SU-85 to M36 I would even go so far to say even to FF.


Veterancy 5 ambush modifiers from +150% to +25%

fixed for ya
16 Oct 2019, 19:32 PM
#39
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3927 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 17:22 PMLago


It's very niche.

The core concept here is a sidegrade that shifts the JPIV from a high damage, low pen tank destroyer into a lower damage, higher pen tank destroyer. I've proposed numbers, but you could always tweak them.

You could make similar refit upgrades for other units that only work well in one mode.




Imo the only issue with the JP4 is its place in tech. If it's along side a panther you will 9/10 times take the panther due to its mobility traits.

The JP4 could work in HQ after 2 trucks to allow okw something that isn't God tier but still good as AT if the schwere goes boom. It also allows an okw player to go med+mech and still have a decent TD to help fight TDs.
It's not a spearhead unit after all, it's primarily defensive in a very aggressive faction which is why it feels so out of place.
16 Oct 2019, 19:41 PM
#40
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15134 | Subs: 7

I wouldn't count on it ever getting any pen boost as long as panther exists.
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