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Jagdpanzer IV Refit

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17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMgbem

yeah but an outright penetration buff isnt the way to go...

Again I have not suggested a Penetration. If the unit is to be redesigned as a heavy then it will higher penetration and lower ROF.
5.6% target size does not really make much of difference especially if one factor collision hits

If you want to read and comment my suggestion read this:

look no suggestion in increasing penetration....

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMgbem

no but it shoots faster than the SU-85 and has lower target sizes... its advantages cannot be ignored...


ROF make slightly better vs mediums allot worse vs Super heavies as I pointed countless times
5.6% target size hardly makes a difference especially if you factor in collision hits.

I am not sure what you point is. As I have said again and again JP4 compared to SU-85 more expensive while being slightly better vs mediums and allot worse vs super heavies.
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMgbem

the OP didnt mention 500/175 price for the JP4 afaik...

Yes he has:
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:28 PMLago


Its gun is superior to Allied TDs against anything with less armour than a Churchill.

Survivability is a good point though. Maybe it'd be worth making the sidegrade cost 100 MP 40 FU instead.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2019, 16:38 PMVipper

That would make the JP4 cost (400/135 and 15 pop) 500/175 and I doubt it would be worth it. Keep in mind that the cost for the dozer upgrade is 50/20

I am not sure why I have to point that to you for a second time.
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMgbem

you did
"If it a counter to enemy heavies/super heavies it need more penetration"

Now check the big "IF" in-front of my sentence. And yes if JP4 is redesigned in a new role of heavy tank counter it would need more penetration and other changes like slower ROF....But I have made no such suggestion.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMgbem

it doesnt have to be cost efficient at a role... since making it cheaper would break the dynamic between allied TDs and axis premium mediums and mediums... instead you can just give it switchable rounds to allow it to engage heavy tanks better to widen its utility without making it the "panther" of heavy tank destroyers

Axis do not have premium mediums...unless you want to count Ostheer doctrinal Panzer H.

Giving switchable AP round would make efficient as heavy TD.

If you want to do theory crafting yes one can make the units average in more than one role instead of cost efficient in just one.

Once more I have little idea what we are debating here, I have post that JP sucks or that it needs a penetration buff and I have not disagreed to the suggestion by OP. I suggest we move on.
17 Oct 2019, 14:30 PM
#82
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

Yes I would say Jp4 is in a limbo spot. I see less Okw willing to pay the price for it.

I wont use it against Usf or Brit at least for those going with cromwell and comet. Tank commander upgrade +sight +accruacy with the speed. Jp4 is sitting duck.
17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PM
#83
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PMVipper

Some suggestion may include.

Price to 300-340/120 pop to 12. If there is a need nerf to HP or armor. Increase reload time

Unit is now designed to fight mediums and TDs.


Vet 1 ability:
"Cautious Movement" replace by a target weak point variation that lock target for around 10 secs
or
a single AP round
or
A high penetration skill shot similar to Pershing
or
"Ambush" unit is cloaked can rotate but movement break camo. Unit gain +5 sight radius and 15% rotation plus another 2 sight radius and 5% for each vet level.

your suggestions are a mixed bag imo... giving it more anti medium potential means allied heavy TDs would be punished more severely which would prevent them from countering panthers... which would then allow panthers to run amok killing infantry and tanks with machineguns and 75mm rounds....

giving it more anti heavy potential seems more sensible as it widens the utility of this niche unit without oppressing the sole allied counter to pantherspam


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PMVipper

Now check the big "IF" in-front of my sentence. And yes if JP4 is redesigned in a new role of heavy tank counter it would need more penetration and other changes like slower ROF....


the issue is turning it to a dedicated heavy TD would make it even worse than it was before...especially since the allies mostly field mediums over heavies and superheavies... id like it alot less than its current model or the newly proposed model...

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PMVipper

Axis do not have premium mediums...unless you want to count Ostheer doctrinal Panzer H.


the panther is a premium medium... and is widely considered a premium medium by alot of people...


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PMVipper

Giving switchable AP round would make efficient as heavy TD.

If you want to do theory crafting yes one can make the units average in one then more role instead of cost efficient in just one.


we are in agreement here then
17 Oct 2019, 14:49 PM
#84
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:27 PMVipper
Axis do not have premium mediums...unless you want to count Ostheer doctrinal Panzer H.


OKW has a stock premium medium.
17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PM
#85
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1139

Imo panther is only premium in HP pool and its old faded reputation.

Its speed is not that speedy to chase mediums. It needs more micro than its cheaper 60TD counterparts. Its upgrade & vet bonus are far from premium. It is mostly built because (at least for Wehr), they have less answers to Allies heavy.

Simply like Jp4, PV, cost effectiveness are questionable and need more investigations.
17 Oct 2019, 14:59 PM
#86
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PMmrgame2
Imo panther is only premium in HP pool and its old faded reputation.

ok lets break this dumbass argument

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PMmrgame2

Its speed is not that speedy to chase mediums.


its faster than all stock and premium mediums except for british ones... and it outguns all of them

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PMmrgame2

It needs more micro than its cheaper 60TD counterparts.

it has more armor penetration and HP than 60 range TDs...


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PMmrgame2

Its upgrade & vet bonus are far from premium. It is mostly built because (at least for Wehr), they have less answers to Allies heavy.

its still THE BEST premium medium ingame PERIOD

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:54 PMmrgame2

Simply like Jp4, PV, cost effectiveness are questionable and need more investigations.


your skills are the only things in need of an investigation considering how bad you are...




mrgame2 why is it soo hard to drill into your head that these units are fine? practically everyone thinks theyre fine while youre screaming like 6 year old kid...
17 Oct 2019, 15:18 PM
#87
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3946 | Subs: 1



Jagdpanzer IV


SU-85


Jackson


Firefly



Thanks!
Yea given it's pen values I'd say lowering its vet requirements is a great start point.
17 Oct 2019, 15:20 PM
#88
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2033

Lower veterancy requirements and be done with it.

JP4 is actually very good if you know how to use it.
17 Oct 2019, 16:25 PM
#89
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:49 PMLago


OKW has a stock premium medium.

That is simply semantics and I am not going to derail a thread on that.

One could argue thou that PzIV J it is not a premium medium since it is the only medium available to the faction and Panther is not main battle tank but a TD....
17 Oct 2019, 16:43 PM
#90
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PMgbem

your suggestions are a mixed bag imo... giving it more anti medium potential means allied heavy TDs would be punished more severely which would prevent them from countering panthers... which would then allow panthers to run amok killing infantry and tanks with machineguns and 75mm rounds....

I am starting to feel that you are arguing for the point of arguing to be honest, since you are contradicting yourself.

According to you:
jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 12:53 PMgbem

...
its not meant to hard counter allied TDs.... its meant to scare them away...
...

and making cheaper will not change its performance vs allied TDs. Actually my suggestion would make it less attractive than a JP4 that can fight all enemy armor from mediums to Super heavies as you propose.

As for your scenario of building both JP4 and Panther I sincerely doubt that unless trolling in 4vs4. The picture of Panther "running amok killing infantry and tanks with machineguns and 75mm rounds" is probably from another game...

One could argue about the Tiger/JP4 combo but I am not sure how problematic that might since one can already use a Pershing M36 combo.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PMgbem

giving it more anti heavy potential seems more sensible as it widens the utility of this niche unit without oppressing the sole allied counter to pantherspam

Again an exaggeration as allied TDs are NOT the "sole" counter to Panthers, the same things that counter JP4 can also counter Panther like ATGs and AT infatry especially one with elite bazookas.

Panther "spam" is not really an option unless again in 4vs4.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PMgbem

the issue is turning it to a dedicated heavy TD would make it even worse than it was before...especially since the allies mostly field mediums over heavies and superheavies... id like it alot less than its current model or the newly proposed model...

We might be playing a different game since in the game I play I see allot mote Pershings, IS-2, Churhcills, Comets than I do Sherman, T-34/76 or Cromwell.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PMgbem

the panther is a premium medium... and is widely considered a premium medium by alot of people...

The Panther is not a premium medium tank, it Role is that of countering heavy tanks and thus it has an AT main gun. You can call it a hybrid if you like but it is not a main battle tank.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 14:38 PMgbem
we are in agreement here then

Finally...

I have clearly presented my point of view, back it up with stat and have little to add. You are entitled to your opinion. Lets agree to disagree (not sure on what we disagree on) and lets pls move on.

17 Oct 2019, 17:39 PM
#91
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

I like how all the comparisons leave out the extra hp/armor and stealth the jagpanzer gets. With these biased arguments you can make anything look up.
17 Oct 2019, 17:47 PM
#92
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8266 | Subs: 1

I like how all the comparisons leave out the extra hp/armor and stealth the jagpanzer gets. With these biased arguments you can make anything look up.



Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V)
1) Unlocks the 'Cautious Movement' ability
2) +25% HP +20% accuracy

(Unit does not get extra armor as a vet bonus)

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 11:08 AMgbem


Armor: 230/80 vs 140/70

Health: 640 vs 640


I like how people are more interest in proving that people who provide the stat are biased than actually contributing something useful to the debate.

What I like even more is that the same people seem to have REAL trouble in READING the stats before starting ACCUSING others of being biased.

For me that is clear indication that they themselves are actually biased toward the other side and eager to shout biased when the stat they read does not go well their own bias.

In the end of the day if someone is not pleased with stat provided he should any stat he feels is relevant.
17 Oct 2019, 18:28 PM
#93
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2033

I like how all the comparisons leave out the extra hp/armor and stealth the jagpanzer gets. With these biased arguments you can make anything look up.


It's no coincidence that the extra HP, smaller target size and good armour get ignored. They just don't fit some people's narrative. And honestly this is a classical example of how some people bend things to suit their narrative. Some people that act as some sort of high instance on balance and game design are nothing more than fanboys that want the game balanced in a way that suits their playstyle and favourite factions.
17 Oct 2019, 19:25 PM
#94
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2019, 17:47 PMVipper



(Unit does not get extra armor as a vet bonus)



I like how people are more interest in proving that people who provide the stat are biased than actually contributing something useful to the debate.

What I like even more is that the same people seem to have REAL trouble in READING the stats before starting ACCUSING others of being biased.

For me that is clear indication that they themselves are actually biased toward the other side and eager to shout biased when the stat they read does not go well their own bias.

In the end of the day if someone is not pleased with stat provided he should any stat he feels is relevant.


Never mentioned vet. It has more base armor than most TDs.
17 Oct 2019, 19:43 PM
#95
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 894

It is always worth taking the values of units posted in threads with a pinch of salt. It is way too common and way too regular that numbers that might make the rebuttal worse, or values that do not fit the narrative of the thread are casually ignored or deliberately made more confusing to read or understand. That was even pointed out by elchino7 recently. So beware! It is always best to check and test yourself. I hope this helps!
17 Oct 2019, 19:46 PM
#96
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450

Someone should repost the stats but include rof, armor, and hp. You will get a clearer picture then.
17 Oct 2019, 21:12 PM
#97
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

I like how all the comparisons leave out the extra hp/armor and stealth the jagpanzer gets. With these biased arguments you can make anything look up.


In which situations is its Armour actually useful?

Against Medium Tanks who shouldn't be in range to fire?

Against TDs who have enough pen to ignore its Armour in the first place?


17 Oct 2019, 21:16 PM
#98
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2033



In which situations is its Armour actually useful?

Against Medium Tanks who shouldn't be in range to fire?

Against TDs who have enough pen to ignore its Armour in the first place?




What a ridiculous argument. So let's make Ele and JT have 0 armour because technically no enemy unit should never be in range of them.
17 Oct 2019, 21:18 PM
#99
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



What a ridiculous argument. So let's make Ele and JT have 0 armour because technically no enemy unit should never be in range of them.


If 0 armour came with a turret? Hell yes! For similar reasons is why puma is a god tier unit. How much armour it has doesnt matter when you have the mobility and range not to be hit.

No one is saying having good Armour is terrible. People are saying that having high Armour, on a unit that is meant not to be hit, isnt a worthwhile tradeoff vs high damage, high pen, mobility and having a turret.
17 Oct 2019, 21:27 PM
#100
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2033



If 0 armour came with a turret? Hell yes! For similar reasons is why puma is a god tier unit. How much armour it has doesnt matter when you have the mobility and range not to be hit.

No one is saying having good Armour is terrible. People are saying that having high Armour, on a unit that is meant not to be hit, isnt a worthwhile tradeoff vs high damage, high pen, mobility and having a turret.


JP4 doesn't have insane mobility. Not sure what your point is with the comparison to Puma.

You don't always fight at the desired range. Especially on close quarters maps. So yes JP4s will get shot at often just like Jacksons, Firefly, SU 85 etc. You must live in dream world if you think a TD never gets shot on just because it has 60 range.
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