Profile of Katitof

That moment, when vipper makes a separate thread to reinforce argument of person he is going against.

I do not agree that Penals are fine as they are now. They are slightly too powerful in early engagements.

Have you even read what I have written?
They HAVE to be, because axis will ALWAYS have more infantry on the field in early game due to their cost and the fact you can't just start building them within 10 seconds from game start.

If they were not able to win early engagements, they would be underpowered.

You're acting like my proposal to turn 2 SVTs into Mosins would completely ruin their strength while what it would really do is shave off around 11% close range and 14% long range (with Cons Mosins but this number can be anything we want), which IMO is exactly the tiny bit that they overperform with early game. It's not like 40-50 munitions is very expensive either so they'll be back in full strength in no time but at least it will give Axis some room to breath.

50 muni is pretty significant cost, even for soviets now that everything except moving and reinforcing costs them muni.
Initial MP would HAVE to go below that of rifles if that happened, because squad would then perform worse then rifles and axis counterparts would be too cost efficient against them.

Balance modder explained it to you earlier in the thread, penals HAVE to be as strong as they are as long as they cost 300mp and arrive latest of all infantries.

It does NOT matter that they beat all other infantries 1v1 in early game, when you will ALWAYS have more units and you will always be able to 2v1 them in early game and past early game weapon upgrades and support weapons completely close and seal that gap.

You propose something very severe while at the same time do not seem to understand why the unit is like it is.

Don't 1v1 them in early game, you don't have to as you will always have more squads then soviet using penals.

I said 'can', not 'should'. This isn't an 'if X then Y also' situation. Unit price is partially independent of comparisons between factions and can be based on certain performance or faction balance/needs. The fact that some units are priced for initial value (Grens) and others are priced for max potential (Obers) proves that. There would be no need to (significantly) lower Penals price if they were to get an SVT upgrade package as it could upset balance more than is needed.

Except scaling completely turns upside down vet0 balance.

If you want to scale to maximum performance, then that also means cost decreases for penals, because they stand nowhere near similar infantry like pfussies or rifles who got much more utility and abilities.

That's why vet0 cons vs grens are perfectly balanced, but the very moment lmg upgrade comes into play, its one sided combat. You have additional cost of that scaling, its a munition cost of the LMG upgrade, munition cost of BAR upgrade, of pfussi G43 upgrade.

And no, you can not ignore cost relations across the factions of units performing similar role.
Just look at medium tanks.

P4 of both axis factions have best stats and have edge over all allied stock medium tanks, should we increase their costs even further?
Obviously no, they already are more expensive.
And so are penals.

You are trying to fix what isn't broken.
By going penals you sacrifice map presence and map control, you will always be outnumbered and you will always be outcapped, that is why they need to be winning early engagements they participate in and in case of their scaling, its not better then any axis units scaling, they get in offense what they lack in defense, but they do not have any weapon upgrade which would increase their main role of AI infantry, contrary to both grens and volks and even pfussies if you want to go for them. Hell, even osttruppen get LMG upgrade now to scale even better despite them being supposedly trash, throw-away meat shield infantry.

You want to see less penals?
Come up with an idea to make cons a viable pick that wouldn't be a massive burden in late game without doctrinal aid.

You'll nerf penals in any way now and we're back to maxim + guards spam.

Minimal change would be to replace 2 SVTs with Mosin Nagants so they lose a bit of their early game strength. Then an SVT upgrade for 40-50ish munitions to make them full AI. Mutually exclusive with the PTRS package.

Easy change, hits right where it hurts, and imposes a strategic choice.

You forgot to decrease their cost to 250 or something.

You can't have 300mp squad being weaker then 280mp squad with the same role you know.

I still think we didn't need to nerf manpower, fuel, and building time for officers at the same time. We could just nerf one of these gradually wiht constant monitoring. You guys change things too abruptly.

This wouldn't be CoH if it wasn't like that.

When it comes to nerfs, its always heavy bundle package.