Prior to the latest nerf, the DSHK was built a ton. It was the main reason land lease was picked so much even after the 76mm shermans were locked behind tech.
Part of that was the fact the maxim was/is underperforming and part of it was how ridiculous the DSHK was despite it's even worse arc.
[...]
-on a serious note it's more situation dependent mg42 is only better if its camping a spot covering as many points of entry as possible. Since my multitasking and unit management are crap that can be useful to me but less so in the hands of someone more capable.
I just wanted to make the point that looking at suppression stats alone is no good choice. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I was just picking CoH2 up again when lend lease was a thing: In my memory lend lease died after tying the sherman to tech, since the main reason to get it was that you could skip T4.
The MG42 is one of the main reasons why Axis dominate open fields from early to mid game: Good vision, hard to be flanked and one unit can cover a big chunk of the map. As I said, the 50 cal has it's merits, but it cannot provide the stability that a MG42 gives you |
i asked if he smoked or was drunk, cause he was writing thing that were not here in the thread, is it an insult now ?
Yes, in this context it absolutely is and you know that.
I'm not gonna reply to the other stuff to not further derail the topic away from Rifles and Volks. We can discuss in PM or find another suitable thread/open up a new one because there seems to be broader interest.
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No?
At maximum range (35), the Rifle's Garand has ~1.7dps, the M1919 has 8.76dps
4 x 1.7 + 8.76 = 15.56dps at 35 range
At maximum range (35), the Gren's K98k has ~2.26dps, the LGM42 has 8.93dps
3 x 2.26 + 8.93 = 15.71dps at 35 range
Riflemen have 5x 80hp, or a 400hp effective pool
Grens have 4x 80hp, or a 320hp effective pool
400hp/15.71dps = 25.4sec
320/15.56dps = 20.6sec
Rifles at max range w/ M1919 are 19% stronger than Grens w/ LMG42.
This doesn't take into account that for each model lost, grens lose 33% of their K98k damage, vs. 25% for Rifle's Garand. Also note that this becomes more in favor of Rifles the closer you get: The LMG42 stays around 0.2-0.3dps ahead at all ranges, but the 4x Garands fill in that DPS difference at range 25. On top of that, Rifle's have far, far better vet bonuses.
Honest question:
Are these corrected for RA? I thought that vet0 Grens had a bit less than 1.
Not that it completely changes the outcome, but that's an easy correction to do. |
that not fully true, if we take brits and ost and they bot rush for tank osther will have to give up in tier and tier 2 unit to make it in time, while brits skipping side tech will get tier 1 units (btw by skipping tier 1 u basically skip on faust lmg 42 upgrade and rifle nade)
i posted above why the cal 50 is better but to TLDR: better suppression, and while it has a bit worse arc it get almost pre nerf lvl maxim spam set up time (and the ability to fight vehicle from vet 0)
i think trying to put words in someone else post is a bit more, shaddy than calling someone drunk cause he did such thing (put words in someone else post)
First, this thread is about the Riflemen/Volk balance. This topic will touch other mainlines, but it has been fully derailed into a Grenadier discussion with MG42 and 50 cal comparisons, while you now try to go for IS for some reason. Far off the mark. If you want to discuss Grenadier balance, open another thread.
So I will just adress these points very briefly.
As OST you can't skip T1 unless you play call in infantry which are assault grenadiere (they get a nade) or Osttruppen (they get a faust after T1 or T2 is build). Previous discussion was about USF, not UKF. Comparing to UKF as a faction with balance issues is a good way to create more balance issues. Still my argument holds true. There's also issues with your argumentation, just a few: Side tech delays your medium, regardless of when it would usually come out. If your opponent rushed a medium, there is no reason for you to get T2. UKF is designed that they need to side tech their infantry and they need it to stay competitive infantry wise mid/late game. Cromwell is by far worse than the OST P4 for 10 fu less and can be controlled more easily due to the availability of OST snares.
50 cal:
The 50 cal has decent stats (not sure about accuracy though, I will assume it's similar) and I never doubted that. Also the DhsK has the best MG stats in the game, even before the buff. Still it was not build due to bad arch. The most important thing is that the MG42 will usually suppress in one single burst. More suppression than that is initially not needed for area controll. But what is needed is a bigger arch to also suppress the squad that tries to flank. I'm not saying that the 50 cal has no merits, but the majority of players (including me) would gladly give up any MG for an MG42. Also the 50 cal needs some minor AT options because otherwise USF has next to no vehicle control beside AT rifle grenades on vetted Riflemen, one single bazooka on the officer and shitty 10 mun light mines. Literally that's it. Unless you side tech and delay your medium (see above).
Putting words in anyones mouth is shady and horrible discussion style. It's still no excuse for insults. Call him out on that bullshit and I'm all in for some reasonable mockery and fun on the forums, but there's a fine line between mockery and insult and in my opinion you and some others crossed it or are too close to crossing it here. Keep things civil. |
btw im comparing the tier 1 to buying tier 1, don't try to flip the argument, green are tier 1 unit rifle are tier 0
The only reason than Grenadiere are T1 was to delay their fielding in vanilla CoH. OST by design was always intended to have T1 and also build it right away. But that aside: Both are mainline infantry and the only choice you have if you play a standard game. T1 or T0 does not make any difference at all.
3 rifle nade come after 40 fu to tech
Rifle nade is unlocked with normal teching, hand grenade is unlocked with sidetech. Both factions are designed to unlock their medium at about the same time, so side tech will delay your tank, which is not the case for OST. VERY bad comparison.
and isn't the cal 50 much better ?
No it generally is not. Most players see the MG42 as the best MG in the game due to high suppression and the wide arch. 50 cal might have better pen and also decent suppression, but lacks the wide arch and therefore the ability to establish area control, which is the most important aspect of an MG.
nobody said they want 2 lmg did u smoke or drink before coming to the forum ?
Warning for wording. I don't look kindly upon ad hominem "arguments".
The other debaters should take note as well. A heated debate is no excuse for insults. |
1 the is no recoil or spray mechanic it got debunked
2 got my stats from https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86
1. Good to know that.
2. Looks alright, although the site is unfortunately very outdated. As I said it was a feeling I had, maybe it then stems also partially from vet boni, or maybe I'm just wrong. Just to be sure: Does anyone know if those weapons had major changes in the last two years? |
They target a single model, but have a strange spray mechanic where they can reroll missed shots to hit the other models of the squad.
Don't know how it's calculated though. |
Hi forum guys.
Add Japan, a good idea?
Your other posts suggest that you've been playing the game for at least long enough to know yourself around. You should realize that CoH2 has not been in development anymore for a long time now. Why do you ask this then, and even with so few effort? |
2 stg < 1 bar dps this not even counting the extra m1 garand that rifle keep
Could be, I don't know. It was more a feeling that I have. Where did you get the stats/knowledge from?
I agree - right now.
But if riflemen were buffed (or made cheaper), they'd trade better with grens (especially mid/late with double bars or M1919), which means that OST would need an adjustment as well... which leads to the problem I listed before.
I don't want Riflemen to be buffed, they're alright the way they are. It's just Volks and IS that are overperforming. Problem against OKW is the extremely high early game pressure by Sturmpioneers that 1v1 your Riflemen and cheaper Volks, that leads to high map presence of OKW. Problem against Volks especially is that you need to close in, so you have a higher chance to drop a model first which negates your close range advantage. Otherwise you can slug it out long range with 50% chance of losing and 50% chance of winning, but then OKW was able to pin down a unit of yours that did cost 30 MP more to build and 3 MP per model more to reinforce, so he traded well even if he loses the fight. This becomes worse with StGs, an upgrade option that OKW gets for free, while USF needs to sidetech, putting them further behind on MP and negates fuel advantage.
UKF does not have the problem. First because IS are too strong as well, and second because they CAN slug it out long range. So OKW needs to move and starts dropping models first.
Tone down Volks slightly (general nerf, upgrade nerf or whatever) and Riflemen are fine, as they're decently balanced against Grens. IS should be discussed in another thread. |
And rifles can't be buffed without also buffing grens, which in turn means buffing cons.
Really, every mainline infantry unit needs a balance pass (at the same time) - there's just too many knock-on problems when adjusting them one at a time. Also, it would enable toning down the insane power creep that's happened over the years, at least with mainline infantry.
You rarely see the matchup anymore, but I thought Cons vs Grenadiere is still fine. Although debated Penals are also alright. Also Grenadiere vs Riflemen is not THAT far off. it's just Volks and IS that are overperforming |