... at long range the scatter of ISU shots come to effect and it gets fairly inaccurate at hitting both Infantry and Armor at max 70 range.
If MMX's unit stats are correct, the ISU has actually the same accuracy and a better scatter area profile than the Elefant, so it's safe to assume that the ISU will hit more often. The AP shell uses different stats than the HE shell, so while the HE shell indeed has a large scatter area, the AP shell is more "accurate".
It is not a balance problem, if you let your opponent stall for 260 fuel and have even control of the map while the Soviet guy saved up his 260 fuel, you need introspection rather than balancing of ISU.
This is a very thin argument. Following this train of thought, all heavies could also act as game enders again because you did not push enough beforehand.
In a somewhat even game, it is often viable to sacrifice some CP in order to push resources more heavily and go for a heavy tank instead. I'm not saying that it were impossible to deny heavies by constant pushing, but brushing it off by saying "push more and you won't see a heavy ever" just does not work. Especially not in team games where fuel is not as limited due to caches. |
Half of what you typed is false, watch some hans streams with him microing both units, he pretty much uses attack ground every time due to how unreliable they both are vs moving squads.
Brumbar also has pretty much identical range with bunkerbuster so nerfing the ISU when nondoc brumbar stays the same would be crazy.
If comparing the range of a muni-cost/long CD ability with the standard shots of a unit is fine, then all Allied mortars need a buff to 100 range because this is what OST mortar gets on counter barrage (even without muni cost).
What Hans does is super-optimizing the unit. The thing with the ISU is that the AoE is so large it is best if it hits near the center of the squad. Otherwise it might target a model on the edge of the squad and thereby not do as much damage as possible. That is the reason, not the movement of the squad. But due to the projectile's speed the ISU will still hit moving squads, whereas the Brummbär will reliably miss on larger distances if you don't lead the shot. |
While mainlines might be exposed, there isn't much reason to keep half dead weapon teams on field when you know there is ISU there.
This is true, but losing mainlines hurts just as much, so my point is still valid. And also weapon crews often need to defend in a fight against other units and will take damage.
You seem to think I want to buff ISU, while I am just portraying that we already have a much more potent AI units which are not as restricted and their performance is fine.
Basically, I'm pointing out hypocrisy.
Yes, there is range difference, but it never was an argument before when a unit overperformed.
Also, that example would hold any ground if soviets had some kind of stock ISU alternative, which correct me if I'm wrong - they most certainly do not have.
No I do not think this, my point is that you cannot compare the number of occurances of doctrinal vs nondoctrinal units and then draw a conclusion regarding their power level or balance based on that. Because, you know, doctrinal units are doctrinal while non-doctrinals are not.
This is what I was pointing out with my hyperbole example.
Oh it is possible to not hit its targets.
In fact, ISU does this quite often, because you know - LARGEST SCATTER IN GAME.
But people only register hits, completely disregarding the fact that unit was shooting for last minute without effect.
Unless you misspelled Brummbar, then yes, all of the shots will hit.
In fact, ISU hits almost always, because you know - LARGEST AOE IN GAME.
As I said, terrain elevation makes shots miss in weird and unplanned ways. I have actually posted data on ISU's AoE damage three weeks ago, please show me yours if you know better. A standing ISU shooting at a Volkssquad in sight will never completely miss it. This is how you should use an ISU. Misses mostly come from the fact that players fail to use hold fire correctly and the ISU shoots while moving to the frontline, which doubles all scatter values.
Contrary, on longer ranges, you can actually dodge a decent portion of the damage of Brummbär damage due to the long flight time. It's still a good unit, but claiming that the Brummbär never misses is wrong. It also takes way more effort aiming it. But as you said - people only register hits. |
That is 100% on you then, ost has multiple methods of forward healing and reinforcement stock.
What he describes is a very realistic scenario. ISU shot interferes with an ongoing infantry engagement, and if the hit is one of the better ones, you have a decent chance for a squad wipe.
The only way to keep your health above 90% at all times is retreating after 5 seconds of fight, which seems what you are suggesting.
Its the exact same case with brummbar and brummbar is much more oppressive because
-it arrives earlier
-it costs much less
-it shoots twice as fast
-it always hits, contrary to ISU which has highest scatter values in game
We've just had a tournament where 1 of these units was used predominantly and performed above expectations consistently. That unit was not ISU. If ISU was half as potent as you try to claim it, it would be used more often.
You're comparing a doctrinal vs a non doctrinal unit. Judging by this, we need to buff guards hard because they were only bought in a couple of games and usually only once while Conscripts were spammed like crazy. Also you are neglecting one big plus for the ISU: It shoots further than all its counters (except for doctrinal Ele and Jagdtiger). The Brummbär needs to push into danger zones to be effective, that's why it is also very strong: It must to be effective in a short window of time because it is constantly under fire. The ISU has other weaknesses, but it is best used to continuously chip away models from enemy squads even when no real fight is going on.
While weird terrain features are of course a thing, on mostly flat terrain it is almost impossible for ISU to not hit its target if you have vision. Some shots might only do 20-30% squad, but all of them will hit. The only question is how hard. |
No it would promote actually using indirect fire for its intended purpose instead of it being a micro-free force multiplier. Howitzers already function like this and they're great in teamgames
This heavily depends on how effective the auto fire really is.
If the "power value" of auto fire is below a fighting squad, you are better off with the fighting squad. |
Good, I’m eagerly awaiting for you to prove a significant relationship between the number of stomps and the power level of a faction in mixed 2v2 tournaments.
You mean the statistics post where the top 200 is the last dot on the left of every graph and displays stats for every single level?
That really doesn’t have any value. Lower level games are not indicative of balance.
“Insert generic my playercard is much better than yours argument”
I would not have thought that this issue would stress your imagination to such a large extend, but I get surprised every now and then.
Still, I'll give it one last go:
1v1 data from literally thousands of high level matches suggests that OKW has the second highest win rate of all factions.
The only way they could have "plummeted" to a very close second place is if OKW were brokenly OP before the patch. I really don't understand how one can seriously try to argue with that point, especially if the data is a "trust me bro I know better". |
That’s nonsense. OKW win rates have plummeted since the Tiger nerf in 1v1 and 2v2 tournaments and you’re putting forward a weak “not enough stomps to justify UP” argument.
First: Show your data.
Second: The fact that this exists and high level players achieve win rates close to UKF suggests otherwise (plus low level players do well with OKW, so the faction seems to have a low entry barrier).
And lastly: You mean not being able to use an OP unit to propel yourself to victory is now seen as a bad thing? |
|
I'm neither a great player nor too familiar with this issue, but I think it comes down to Katy or T34 micro. If he has two Obers plus two Raketen plus probably a Sturmpio then there are only one or two Volks around, so less risk of snaring.
If you went for Penals, then a sniper could do the trick as well. The sniper is usually very good vs OKW anyway, since OKW lacks reliable counters. You just need to be really careful since they can burst it down quickly if you don't pay attention.
Shocks could also be a good point if you can lure him into mid to short range areas. This will force either an MG and thereby cause even less Volks to be on the field, or he needs to target your Shocks with a P4 to counter them and allocates a way more valuable unit to hunt down shocks |
|
OKW and OST are two absolutely decent factions.
If one of them were weak, we would have seen way more stomps by the SOV/UKF combination. |
To be frank, would it need a health buff to accomidate the armour nerf? I know that's completely contrary to what I have been saying but it already has enough health to be forgiving, dropping say 40 armour, if screened properly it should be fine. With ptrs penals, oorah cons, t34 rams, 30 mu mines and 60 range TDs, getting in there should be rewarded
We could discuss this for quite a while. It's impossible to tell if it is better to lower the armor slightly and not do anything to the hitpoints or go for a larger armor nerf and a HP buff to compensate without talking about actual numbers as examples.
My idea just came from the fact that the ISU is not overly beefy (for its price obviously) once you manage to overrun it. Therefore armor nerfs should be compensated somehow. And if the offensive capability should stay the same (just postulating this), then a slight nerf could go to the micro it needs to make it work.
The armor nerf would enable to damage it more often and thereby cause more downtime due to repairs. Good micro keeps the downtimes low. Also, as you said, a well supported ISU would still be effective, but if there is a hole in the defense (too few mines, lost a TD, a unit out of position), you loop back to more damage and longer downtime, while the overall chance to kill the ISU should stay the same (if armor nerf and HP buff were chosen correctly). |
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
