No, it isn't, and you can leave out the sarcasm, even if it's a stylistic device that's unfortunately used abudently on this forum. Life's too short for antagonizing discussions on the internet.
Furthermore, the test may have been purpose-made, but the sample size was nevertheless small. So the evidential quality of the test is hardly superior.
And thirdly, judging from the write-up, frontal nading often failed, and even when it was successful, it seems to have been pyrrhic.
the small sample size was simply a proof of concept of what others are already saying. and regardless of the state in which the low micro efforts succeeded, under NO circumstance should a frontal assault against an MG be successful. their entire purpose is to prevent frontal assaults and a single squad being able to run up to them and force them away with no micro EVER is a failure in its role.
One respected player that's playing to win (i.e. tournament participant) apparently thought highly enough of the Vickers to build not one, but two of them. His opponent (for whom the same can be said) seems to share this appraisal, as he invested into two ISGs to get rid of the Vickers's, and then proceeded to steal both of them, even though he already had an MG of his own.
and people used to build 5 maxims, doesn't mean they were not bad, just that there is no alternative. can they be good? yes, can they be overrun with minimal effort from your opponent? also yes.
the vickers certainly has its merits, there is no denying that. in a building they are quite good- because they deal great damage and the extra range gives them enough room to actually do their job of suppressing infantry.
I know you are being sarcastic, but it really seems to me that their weakness is being exaggerated.
exagegerated? maybe, but based in truth? most definitely.
Let's be honest, MG34 and 42 are not the weak points of axis. Maxim is pretty pretty weak compared to them. Vickers in building is pretty pretty good, outside, not as much but it can still hold it's ground. Maxim is the worst MG in the game. Period. Does that mean it's useless? No, not at all. Supporting conscripts or penals or guards is still pretty pretty good due to the good setup. Team weapons are a forte of OST. MG42 works nicely with werfer to counter pushes and Pak is more than enough to deal with soviet and USF tanks (less so vs comet or churchill but still dominates if supported).
And I agree with Nacht. Weakness of Vickers is exaggerated. It's great in buildings and trenches and when the enemy has stukas or werfers or leigs, then you place Vickers defensively to stop sneaky pushes. Maxim, even though the worst and often enough, non suppressing, can be offensive all game (6 man + setup).
You win some, you lose some. The whole point of COH2 is to abuse weaknesses and play to faction's strengths.
the thing is though, the machine guns should absolutely force the enemy to take a different route. that its ever even possible to without even trying to utilize cover frontally fore them off means they are failing at their role. the claim that these mgs are not a codguy esq claim of elefants doing too much AI damage, this one is actually rooted in reality. the weakness of a faction should never be that its essentail tools (so essential that okw was given a non doc one and usf's was made easier to access) doesnt do its job sometimes.
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Believe it or not, but I just spent more than an hour to write a comprehensive reply, saying how I cannot load your reply, and commenting instead on this tournament cast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K9tZVjh7MM, where the Vickers's are the bane of Volks, and OKW had to get two ISGs to get rid of those pesky Vickers's, but then I accidently clicked the "go-back button"................
So, as I said, I can't see your tests (thank you for effort nonetheless). I'm sorry.
But from the video material that I did see (the tournament cast), the Vickers's seemed to be doing their job, as they kept on suppressing the Volks at far range with one burst or sometimes two max.
Well I guess one example of it working properly in a game ridden with RNG is definitely more solid than a purpose made test (combined with detailed write up in the description of you can't watch it) and many respcted players saying otherwise. In sure everyone is making up the claim anyways. |
we're*
Nice. Sorry I didn't bother the extra 3 clicks on my phone, I'll do better |
This is all true and good and well. However, this doesn't address my objection to the point originally raised, which was that the Maxim and the Vickers are just "garbage" and can easily be frontally flame-naded. I objected that such an undertaking is everything but easy, especially in the early game.
They are worse than the MG42 in terms of suppression, that is true. But that doesn't mean much, because the MG42 is a high benchmark: Just because they are below that high benchmark doesn't make them "garbage". Stopping frontally charging squads is well within their capabilities.
Well, at least that is what I am firmly convinced of until I see video evidence to the contrary...
By the numbers given the Maxim takes about 4 seconds to suppress and the vickers 2 seconds in no cover, double those figures if there is yellow cover and this doesn't take aiming nor traverse into account. Are you saying it's unlikely for a volks squad to walk up into range in 4-8 seconds under fire from a maxim or 2-4 seconds for a vickers and throw a flame nade? Even if you personally have not seen it many of us have very often and the numbers very much support the claim. The low suppression rate combined with the fast throw speed and long range of the lava nade make it more likely that not, especially if there happens to be some yellow cover in place |
question then why don't OKW and Brit get t0 indirect arty????
Because these factions have different approaches to mgs. Okw being out maneuvering and brute force as well as a rapid unlock of the flame nade. Granted I wish for sturms to get smoke nades at some point as leig only smoke is fairly restrictive for a aggressive faction.
At any rate the only early mgs okw will face early on are not exceptional at suppression like the mg42 so being able to smoke out an Mg isn't as huge a problem.
Basicly different armies face different obstacles and when rifles could be matched squad for squad with mgs and no hope of every getting through an alternative had to be provided.
Brits on the other hand have alternative ways to dig out mgs, as the vickers will out trade them and the bren allows you to out maneuver them.
I'm pretty sure that the mortar is there to provide a smoke alternative against ostheer's early game hmg play. I mean one could unlock grenades and use the RE's smoke, but that costs both fuel and muni.
What's weird for me is that on the other hand OKW doesn't have any early game smoke. But they have T0 AT gun at least... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yea I'd like some more smoke for okw just for the tactical avenues it opens
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Alright children were veering of topic |
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Kinda skimmed the video but it looks really solid to me. It's a big change and as Felix said, a nerf to shocks but I think it has merit. I'd like to see where this goes. |
Maybe...who cares? Of all the units to complain about this is probably the dumbest one. It starts it's life as an unarmed paper vehicle against factions with readily available AT. If it's a problem for you I don't know what to say except lol.
I have sat back and watched this faction try to compete with one hand tied behind It's back for 3 years now. And every time some little tweak is made to try to even the odds it gets almost immediately reversed. It's just hilarious at this point. Maybe two patches ago was the only time Brtis took the title from USF as worst faction. But hey, if the community wants USF to be garbage then so be it.
Would reducing the elefant's AI help the usf prosper? I think we're neglecting the obvious balance direction right in front of out face by not addressing this travesty to balance. It should at least be on par with the jp4 and su85 if not as low as the Jackson (because of its range advantage) how do you feel about the elefants AI and how it effects the usf balance? |
Significant
2 stgs
lol
When you compare it to the overbearing AI of the elefant the 2 stgs are unbelievably OP. More than adequate and by those standards, significant. |
Remove the arty and lower the health so it dies to a schu mine. No further nerf needed.
I don't really think the arty change is necessary per say. It's so late game it's almost meaningless. I'd sooner it stay just so that if a player does keep one around it provides some value. It's odd, I'll give you that, but what makes the unit strong it is not. Be kinda like removing the demo on CE because they are too cheap to replace. |
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