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^and that's without even taking into account the bonus moving accuracy meaning chasing a Jackson actually puts the Jackson at an even greater advantage. Being able to run and fight alone is a power only the Jackson has (in the realm of 60 range TDs) but doing so more effectively to boot is just the icing on the cake. Whoda thought designing a unit with every advantage needed to survive being squishy and then making it not with nearly no proper changes leaves a powerhouse that defies balance.... |
Try to dive an equivalently wounded Panther with a sherman and let me know. Pz4 are also doing just fine overextending once vet1 and blitz activated, even get a second panic button with doctrine if required.
I'm not saying Jackson isn't OP, but what you expose here isn't really what makes it OP. What makes it OP is the need to fulfill 2 roles, countering medium tanks and countering heavy tanks.
We'd all love to have a solution to make it more dedicated to one or the other role but that's not possible until Relic move on and bring a solution on USF roaster.
The panther=/= the Jackson. Different roles, one of the roles of the panther is specifically not to be beat head on by medium tanks. Thats factored into its cost and reflected in its vet and performance.
The Jackson and usf as a whole would function absolutely fine if the Jackson was tuned to be a heavy TD and the medium tank counters were buffed slightly. What's more, the usf have what 2 commanders that don't have a medium AT option? You would have to go out of your way to struggle against medium armour as usf without the Jackson filling that role.
What's more, the Jackson fills that role AND heavy AT without even needing its HVAP which is just a huge bonus that further presses its over effeciency in its current state. |
Losing a P4 to a Jackson is also about mistake. Diving with a P4 is about using the environment and shot blockers, using their Vet1 blitz and potential smoke pot if you have the doctrine. Now if you like to play on redball express that's for sure going to be a problem but any 1vs1 and 2vs2 maps give ways to close the distance on long range TDs.
But there is also something important to notice, Pz4 aren't meant to counter Jackson first hand. They can for sure but they are not counter.
Losing a p4to the equally fast but 50% higher ranged guaranteed to pen TD is much more reasonable.
Why is the Jackson supposed to guaranteed counter the p4 even on defense, even if caught out of position, even if flanked but EVERY SINGLE other TD in the game isn't supposed to survive let alone possibly win getting caught out? The answer is because the Jackson is over performing and poorly designed. |
As you said yourself, 15% at max range. I want to believe that the bounce rate is reduced as the P4 gets closer. As for the caliber statement, I replied to the other guy that said that vehicles lighter than P4 don't always penetrate the Jackson. It has some armor, not paper armor. Moving on.
3-4 Shrek shots are enough to take down a Jackson. The problem is that the games I play are a blob shitshow from both sides. Enemy brings armor, I respond with Jacksons, he then brings AT equipped squads and I fall back while holding him with my infantry. Still not enough to stop them sometimes.
Yeah, the Jackson is fast, but if you have 1-2 and the enemy rushes you with 2-3 P4s and is focused on taking them down, he won't back down until he destroys the Jacksons. Plus, if you find it difficult to destroy a Jackson with a P4, you have alternatives. And if you don't, then use P4s and go up close and personal. If you can't take it down from far away, get close. Jackson is nothing more than a sniper. Good from afar, mediocre if you get close. This is how I see it.
And a solution would be to make the M10 Wolverine non doctrinal. Seriously, I wouldn't mind having it as a stock unit instead of the Jackson. It costs nothing, you can spam it and it's seriously perfect in every aspect. You don't even have to change it. Spam it, roll over the enemy, replace casualties. What's 80 fuel lost?
It very much reads like your issues with the jacksons vulnerability lies entirely with micro issues. The Jackson has 60 range. Meaning if a p4 is hitting, let alone with less than a max range snap shot you fucked up. Similarly if 35 range infantry are getting into a range nearly half that of your jacksons operating range you fucked up.
If the enemy is pushing with multiple p4s and all you have to stop then is a single Jackson and no even the micro to get it out you fucked up.
The only scenario where your Jackson should actually be a threat of dying is if you fuck up HARD since even a single p4 punching through is more likley than the to dies itself than kill a single Jackson. The same is not true of course for a single medium breaking through against a *insert quite LITERALLY any single other TD in the entire game here* because the Jackson is over buffed and poorly designed. |
M4A3 has 140/120/100 pen.
Panzer IV J has 125/115/110.
T34/85 has 160/140/120.
EZ8 has 200/165/155.
T34/85 and ez8 are not standard mediums. They are premium mediums.
At any rate, 140 close is absolutely great pen leaving it on nearly equal terms with an Ost p4. Certainly acceptable in the medium AT role |
Jackson's armor = mobility. I don't have to mention how this game is inaccurate, when German tanks are as fast as the allied ones, but you sacrifice something to gain something. You can't be both well armored and fast. This happens only with modern infantry.
Except the Jackson also has the ability to bounce p4 and below shells so I guess Jackson armour = mobilty+armour eh?
Literally if it's range fails it it has mobility to fall back on, if it's mobility fails its still got a chance to bounce. If it gets flanked it can flee and return fire and bounce shells. It's draw back is.... What exactly? Compare to the firefly and su85 and tell me what scenarios would you want any of them over the Jackson and by what margin just to see how overperforming the Jackson is. |
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As for AT alternatives:
Literally any infantry squad the usf field can be an AT squad, including the 3 you get for free by teching up and the 1 you start with.
If memory serves the sherman has the best pen on its AP shells of any standard medium
The at gun shoots the fastest and with a bit of muni also has the most pen, and with some vet also has the most range. Literally the best in every catagory and is only 270mp if I recall (mad up for by HVAP muni draw)
USF has mines that can immobilize stock. While that itself won't kill a tank, it will give you all the time in the world to plink away at it with any manner of AT you so please
The doctrinal there are a number of sherman variants that never see any use because why risk a 40 range AT tank that can be under return fire when you have a 60 range one that does more damage, has more range and is more mobile to boot?
All usf elite infantry have super bazooka that have perfomance close to Shreks than zooks
If you think usf does have any AT options but the Jackson it's because you never needed to look for any because the Jackson is all you need in literally any scenario ever, overshadowing a number of units and honestly the attraction of most doctrines. Usf has to go out of their way to not have some sort of fall back AT.
Tune the Jackson to heavy AT and let the NUMBER of other already existing medium AT units finally get some sun. |
"because of not having any weakness" : Yeah, it just gets destroyed by any tank during a rush.
Except that's untrue. It's as mobile as the enemy, but better on the move.
It deals more damage per shot but has the same health (this means any support will hit a bit harder)
Its got 50% more range so odds are it will have the first shot in and if the enemy pulls out odds are it will have the last shit out.
After receiving damage, even if not killed the Jackson can immediately start repairing itself, including engine damage making it even more likley to escape even the most unfortunate circumstances.
The Jackson has all the same tools to survive as it did when it was a 2 tap, but with double the health and none of its extreme handicaps level out. If you sre losing a Jackson to a tank rush you have to have walked away from the game with the crew out because even a static Jackson will put up a hell of a fight against a p4. Let alone of you micro it.... |
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+1 |
USF has no other counter to medium tanks than Jacksons? What about the best, yet cheapest ATG in COH2? What about elite tripple zook Rangers? Or EZ8, 76 Sherman. Saying Jackson is the only medium tank counter USF has is laughable.
Yep. Usf has lots of great options, none of which will ever see any use because why would they if the Jackson is the best there is and also the easiest to use with the least risk? |
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