Thread: Panther16 Apr 2020, 21:33 PM
Even that would be a massive amount of work. The editor is a mess (tons of unused units and weapons, some units are duplicated for singleplayer while others share stats with mp, etc.) so there would be like 200 weapons that would all need to be changed manually. And then the target size of structures like bunkers would have to be changed too.
Ouch. 10-4
Does target size have to be a whole number? Or could you theoretically use decimal numbers like for infantry? That could help give a wider range for size tuning could it not? |
Didn't read the whole thread but imo obers are not the issue given their cost, timing and singular role combined with less than exceptional durability (I mean it's good, but they are still a 4 man squad) the issue, imo is that it's harder to find an okw squad that ISN'T good on the move. Tone down obers otm and they become even less attractive when you have things like model sniping g43 JLI, stg volks, falls, g43 fussies... Hell even sturms aren't the worst at chasing. When everything is above average how do you make elite be elite without making it increasingly powerful? Maybe if every remaining solider in the third Reich couldn't 360 no scope while running obers could afford to be toned down but atm there's not a chance in hell its feasible imo |
Thread: Panther16 Apr 2020, 21:08 PM
Good post. I've thought about how increasing target sizes could give us a lot more room to work with before. However, there are several implications (the smallest vehicles becoming very hard to hit for example) and it would require a tremendous amount of work and time to finetune everything. This can not realistically be done for CoH2 at this point.
I know the initial change would a heap of work as well, but in theory, would JUST doubling the target size and halving the accuracy be possible? No heavy tuning just widening the number range? Then it would leave finer tuning open as an avenue for you guys thereafter, even if not used initially |
Thread: Panther14 Apr 2020, 23:52 PM
I'd personally would like the Panther more geared to killing premium medium tanks, heavies and non-640 medium tanks. Axis already have a lot of units geared to killing mediums and since Axis don't have anti-heavy TDs, that should be the Panthers role.
It would need adjustment and testing, but it'd focus on having a 200 damage gun vs those types of units along with possible penetration adjustments.
Even if it was accurate, most mediums can be defeated by a variety of other units. You can already dives lightly supported TDs with blitzing PIVs that are around earlier, can mop up infantry and put pressure throughout the map for less cost, pop, and in the case of Ostheer, tech.
"But mirage, it would club the Comet and T34/85!"
That's kind of its point of deploying the Panther. If the enemy is bringing the higher end tanks to the field, this is what is going to be fielded. And it's AI isn't super crazy so there is still ATG support, TDs, snares, etc.
I too agree with this approach. Making it tuned as a premium tank counter gives both axis factions a much needed RELIABLE counter to these units, especially if it's inefficient against normal mediums. |
The problem is imo that apart from preventing them from getting squished (let's say that a good idea - though other handheld wielding units CAN get squished) they also have many more tactical ways of use, which you don't see or don't want to see imo. But true multiple satchels can be too effective imo.
the other AT units are scary enough to dissuade trying to squish them. you drive directly at a shreked up pgrens and your tank IS going to lose half its health (making it prime for a supporting squad to snare) while a ptrs squad MIGHT take out 80hp (if it starts shooting in time, and both shots pen), which still wouldnt lower a tank below th threshold combined with a snare.
I think you just limit yourself to predicting far fewer game scenarios when such crit engine can be used. There are many more ways including ambushes with true sight, penals on retreat paths and many many more. Maybe even most importantly, there are also lategame lack of concentration problems and a crit engine satchel may simply be a gamechanger. I just don't think you should get all these possibilities just for 60 munitions.
well gosh, we wouldnt want silly tactics like using line of sight to create an ambush to be rewarded now would we.... thats called playing the game properly and at to an extent, outplaying your enemy. if you are rolling your tank armound unsupported around blind corners there is no saying what you will run into, the only thing you certainly wont however is a balance issue.
Well, I don't agree here. I think that ptrs is enough to deter light vehicles. Enough for 60 munitions. If you buy them on two squads it is more than enough. Of course I understand that if you do get rushed you want to use the satchel and just drain hp or maybe even random crit weapons for some time. You shouldn't just drain hp and have a crit. Soviet access to zis is really easy and you have t70. Also like you say - good players just don't rush them and won't be rushing them even without crit. But the mistake of driving into penals wouldn't be as punishing as it is now.
you seem to think the satchel is free by constantly citing 60mu... you know its 45mu ONTOP of the 60mu upgrade right? furthermore, the soviet arguably have the LEAST accessible AT gun when going t1, as its an alternate tech route (like the usf) but doesnt just sit and build itself nor does it unlock a free squad to make up for the manpower. at any rate, there is no reason that an AT unit should have a shelf life as you cannot "return" it. the PTRS isnt enough of a threat alone and the satchel makes the upgrade worth it and allows t1 to be viable into the late game without t2 (which IS an optional tier) at the cost on munitions drain.
It could be an option for say 90munitions. Mother Russia was just crazy OP imo. Good they changed it. Still, for now I would just remove those crits as I really belive that those little things add up and Russia is I think the chapest faction of all imo for what they get.
you are misunderstanding me. keep the same output as now but spread across another PTRS, less AI retained, same AT output. and again, the satchels are not free. pgrens pay 100mu for being able to deal 240 damage in a blink, 60mu gets you the ablility to deal upto 80 damage per plink. and then an additional 45mu will keep a tank from squishing you. complaining about the cost of the ptrs upgrade cost and comparing it to the likes of shreks is like comparing only the cost of a molitov and the bundled nade and looking at nothing else.
105 mu to throw the first AT satchel, yet you still have to get close to the tank (by your micro or your enemies miss micro) and the ptrs ain shooting while you close. 60mu gives you zero chase potential, no capacity to finish off a tank, no mobile AT outside the close range satchel. you are not looking at it from the otherside at all.
True - but remeber that one s-minefield costs as much as ptrs and is stationary. I feel that satchels are most dangerous because they require too much concentration from your opponent, much more than from the Soviet player and are just too cheap of an upgrade for the package.
covered basicly everything relating to this one above. least mobile hand AT (long set up, no chase potential, not threat frankly) cheap initial cost, high pay per use. satchel isnt free. i think i summed it up there
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60 ammo could be ok for a satchel package+ptrs if it just dealt extra damage but this engine crit makes it too much imo. This is what is boils down to imo.
I'm not entirely sure you believe that considering your starting complaint was that it prevents them to get squished it was that after a tank hits a mine (as in already has engine damage) the satchel can be used to deal enough damage that the tank will die quicker than if just getting shot at by a zis alone
The only real ways you are going to get hit by a satchel is if you drive into them (which is exactly why the satchel exists) or of you already have engine damage (in which case the snare portion is irrelevant)
The satchel HAS to do engine damage or the ptrs is a waste as the enemy can deny its use and it isn't enough a threat alone to ward off enemy armour (zooks piats and shreks are threatening enough to put a tank under the snare threshold) the satchel keeps tanks from diving them and later acts as a part of combined arms defending otherwise vulnerable casemate TDs.
I could get behind a motion to rebalance their ptrs' so that they use 3 instead of 2 to further cut their AI but the satchel is a necessary evil with more counterplay than you can shake a stick at, especially now that for mother Russia doesn't allow sprint in combat.
You wouldn't walk your infantry into an s-mine field, don't drive your tanks into a ptrs penal and all will be fine. |
I like the idea of tuning it to follow the new design of officer units where they are good in their own right but make other units even better via targeted buffs. They are usable by a noob but made better by a pro. Force multipliers based on input instead of lack of input (aoe blob auras) |
It literally got a small AoE nerf...
Its as accurate as it was, also explain all the REEEE about "OH NEIN MEIN TIGER PANZER IST TOT JETZT!" while IS-2 affected with the EXACT SAME change didn't have even a single post about it being "dead".
Not to Mention the durability nerf the is-2 got as well. Yet no "is-2 ruined now the soviet union will never win!!!!" threads |
While I agree with you completely on each of these points I wanna say 1 thing:
Aren't you a big rude? Like, you're right, but still feels like you're in rage and...that's bad, man.
at the risk of further sounding like a dick, read the thread between when you posted this and now. It's the frustration knowing full well its going to be a "these very valid reasons don't count because I say so" kinda thread.
Literally a matter of if they don't have it the entire unit as an AT unit is worth nothing with a rebuttal of "nuh uh!"
And "this AT unit should provide no value whatsoever after the light armour phase is done"
This ain't my first rodeo... |
So... jackson should have LESS sight then ANY other unit in game? Even LESS then tanks its supposed to fight?
SU-85 focused sight might not be best ability, but the unit is rather quite reliant on it.
That was my error, I meant SLIGHT. I'll edit the post for clarity, sorry. |