Also, the tweaks required to make the puma a good counter (or even just viable) would make it incredibly strong against LVs, which would cause a bunch of other issues.
Okay but I'm talking about tweaks to both units not just the Puma. Lowering the Jackson's armor does not effect LVs. Moving accuracy would effect it a little
But it's already incredibly strong against LVs?
Also the Jackson use to have much slower reload than it does now and imo the buff that changed that went WAY too far
Again this ignores the puma's vet 1 ability which can hugely turn the tide in any fight it has 1 on 1 with another vehicle |
1. Forcing a commander pick to counter a very common mainline isn't a good idea, imo, especially for a faction that currently relies very heavily on doc abilities/units.
An interesting idea might be to put the puma in the HQ, but locking it behind BP3 (but not the T3 building) - or putting it in the T2 building, but requiring BP3 to be researched in order to build it (to prevent T2 skipping). This might also help Ost in facing LVs, since they're currently extremely vulnerable to fast T70s (and others).
2. The +15 sight the puma has over the M36 is nice, and would come into play a fair bit. However, when chasing/diving, the M36 is going to have vision from other units closer to the front-lines. Additionally, if we're talking about "other bonuses", the M36 has a vehicle crew (self repair, target dropping, pop-avoidance, etc.).
As for turret speed, the M36 and Puma both have a rotation speed of 35, which is also the same as most medium tanks (panther, P4, Sherman, T34/76, etc.). I only brought up rotation because the Puma is an LV, and most LVs have around 100 rotation speed (as do some AI-focused mediums, like the Ostwind).
3. This is a good point, and I agree, it's probably an issue with most/all LVs. The thing is, the M36 doesn't really have these issues, so it's just another advantage it would have in this match up.
I mean no one is saying it can dominate the m36, or that it should. Presumably you wouldn't dive after a full health Jackson with your puma for 1 on 1 showdown
But with a few tweaks it could be a much more reliable option to use against it |
1. Low accuracy at max range. At 60 range, it has 28.6% less chance to hit than the M36 (when both are stationary).
2. Low moving accuracy (0.5) means you're going to miss a lot, or be forced to 'stop and start' a lot, which allows for the enemy to eventually get out of range. The M36 has a 0.75 moving accuracy modifier.
3. Low damage. This one is arguable due to RoF, but not so much once you factor in accuracy. 120 damage just isn't that much against a 640hp tank when you have trouble hitting it.
4. It has horrible turret rotation (for an LV), so corners or even just flanking it are very viable counters. There are some medium AI-tanks and other LVs with nearly 4x faster rotation.
5. Awful pathing. I'm not sure if its just confirmation bias, but the puma seems to get stuck (or turn randomly) on just about everything when its chasing stuff.
6. Low armor. At 25/12.5 armor, the puma takes damage from just about everything; combined with 400hp, that's not great for diving.
7. Availability. The puma isn't available to OST unless you pick the "mobile defense" doc, which is incredibly unpopular now (it was never picked in WCS). It also forces OKW to go mech-truck to counter USF's late game, which either means the med-truck becomes even less popular than it currently is, or mech becomes a required back-tech in USF games.
I already addressed some of those points. I said they should add it to another Commander in Ost and maybe give mobile defense some love. The unit could also be buffed, maybe with better moving acc
You are leaving out the fact that the Puma can self spot, so it should get first shot advantage pretty often. And Jackson turret speed isn't great either
Awful pathing isn't unique to the Puma, I think all the light tanks suffer from it since they can't crush anything besides wooden fences |
Puma does not sound like a good option vs M36 because of:
Low far penetration
Low far accuracy
Low damage
Low speed modifier in rough terrain
I mean if we made the Jackson's armor 90-100, that would give it really good pen chances at all ranges?
Jackson also has a larger than average target size iirc, and the pumas vet 1 ability gives it a decent chance against most t4 units. If the armor nerf went through i think that would be a good spot
I could be overplaying the target size difference though, i trust your intuition on the accuracy point more than mine
Side note: Is it crazy to ask for a 2nd puma cmdr on Ostheer? If it became a more reliable jackson killer that would be a good idea i feel. Maybe give mobile defense some love too |
Yeah sure let me skip the medic upgrade on Battlegroup HQ because healing with expensive medic crates is such a viable tactic.
It'll only delay your weapon upgrades for..............ever |
First of all, dont start a flame war if you are not going to handle it afterwards. CODGUYS is the worst example your could pick. Your post are beyond flame to other users aswell, sit back and relax or just leave the forums for better.
What is your problem dude, you have been misreading me the whole time
OP made a very specific thread about jackson v p4/puma. Some users started talking about stug buffs. I agree the Jackson needs changes, but instead of insulting the Op for not making the thread they wanted, I suggested they go make the thread themselves about these other ideas. Please fucking explain to me what your problem is with that idea?
The OP literally just said this on page 4 and you all ignored him:
whats gonna counter 60 range stugs supported by command p4? whats the egde allies gonna have? when stug is faster and has faster rate of fire then su85?
axis already has a very strong early game in team games becouse of mg42... or just okw things...
please keep the topic on the Jackson and espacially the proposed change in Jackson puma interaction in order to make p4 pen Jackson 100%
Can I make this any clearer?
This kind of "retoric" discussions of panthers vs jacksons vs heavies vs TDs are just the way this so called fanboys disrupts threads. Again you are welcome to start your own reading and realize it for yourself.
I literally already said I agree that the jackson is too good. Just saying lets stick to the Jackson v P4/Puma interaction that this thread is about
You are free to read all the previous threads about M36, im not here to babysit anyone.
I woulnt summon the dev team into this discussion unless you have solid proof that "their desitions are affected", they respond to the game design, and then the community feedback, not the other way around.
So when I ask you to provide a source, you're "babysitting me". But then you say I need a source to back up my claim. Great consistency there buddy....
My posts are not flame to most users, just people like you who have already made up their mind about me before they even read my post. Or who can't read and try to argue against something that I didn't even say... |
Actually it does not, but everytime a thread discusses about ""Nerfin"" the M36 a whole army of fanboys defend it because it carries their games
Actually it does, otherwise the Jackson wouldn't have received so many different changes since launch and STILL be a problem. But that's not the point...
I was not saying "it's too complicated so don't bother trying to nerf it", I was saying "it's really complicated, and this fucking thread is about something else so go make your own about this different issue"
Can you show me an example of one of these Jackson threads where a horde of US fanboys ruined it? And if their fanboys who cares what they say? You're not giving the mod team enough credit if you think their decisions are effected by the nonsense coming from Codguy's keyboard... |
Sure it is. The game is full of such scenarios, never had a game without something like that. PaKs missing 4 shots over and over, Faust hits ground, Grenade hits magic walls, etc.
Yeah and it happens to all 5 factions. So it's not a balance concern....
You would realize this if you played all 5 of course.... |
But that thread is a bad jocke, pointing on something with interest, while knowing the problem is something else.
If you know what the problem is, I'll repeat myself:
Make. Your. Own. Fucking. Thread.
OP is talking about an unrelated issue. He's not saying this is the only problem with the Jackson. Just one of them
Instead of talking about that, you're filling the thread with wild unconnected crap that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion. If you have ideas, please share them. In a thread about them........
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Whats the point of armor nerf?
Try reading literally the first sentence of the OPs post:
please nerf Jacksons armor, i dont think they should be able to bounce p4 shots.
That thread is again on part of bad balancing... one bad building-brick of many before.
Jackson is OP because it is a trolling-machine. More range, more speed, more acc. While Rangers are spamed.
Then go make your own fucking thread about it? I agree the Jackson is too good, but changing it requires a lot of brainstorming
OP made a very specific thread about a very specific issue, which is actually how you're supposed to do it. And it shouldn't be too hard to fix if the community agrees it should
The game became a stupid lucky-fuk no-brainer.
Then stop playing it if you think that? That sounds like no fun
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