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Infiltration nades vs molotov

ddd
13 Sep 2019, 08:51 AM
#21
avatar of ddd

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Yeah remember to make them 1 nade too.
13 Sep 2019, 09:25 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

Hi all, was rereading the patch notes and something that stood out to me was the "doctrine ruining" nerf that infiltration nades got the bumped them up to 20 mu... That's the same price as a molotov. Doesn't that seem like an incredible oversight to anyone else?

Comparing the cost of the molotov and the cost of infiltration grenades is simply misleading. One could compare the effectiveness but the cost has to be compared to with cost of other options.

Infiltration grenades can be used by Ober but bundle grenades and WP grenades although more epxensvie are better options, can be used by JLI which is a the only option (and a good one).

They can also be used by VGs who have the flame-grenade. Between the flame grenade and barrage which is better is situational since "infiltration grenades" can be used for wipes and certain conditions but flame grenade can be used for cover denial since it has a longer duration. If one increase the cost "infiltration grenades" one would probably have to increase the performance.

The problem comes from the OKW release when OKW had very few tools to deal with garrison and "infiltration grenades" offered enough utility to take a slot. Currently with "incendiary grenades" available to VGs it is questionable even it is worth the slot. Actually one could merge the ability with MP-40 upgrade and be done with it.
ddd
13 Sep 2019, 11:53 AM
#23
avatar of ddd

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 09:25 AMVipper

Currently with "incendiary grenades" available to VGs it is questionable even it is worth the slot.


Its questionable only for extremaly bad players, ask someone good and you will learn infiltration nades are borderline broken. 20 muni cost is a big joke. Same cost as ass grens is a minimum
13 Sep 2019, 11:55 AM
#24
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3895

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 11:53 AMddd


Its questionable only for extremaly bad players, ask someone good and you will learn infiltration nades are borderline broken. 20 muni cost is a big joke. Same cost as ass grens is a minimum
yes but then make them cancellable like all other nades
13 Sep 2019, 12:03 PM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 11:53 AMddd


Its questionable only for extremaly bad players, ask someone good and you will learn infiltration nades are borderline broken. 20 muni cost is a big joke. Same cost as ass grens is a minimum

Feel free to provide your video where you used them and them being broken.

As a commander slot compare them with assault grenadiers and you might find them lacking.
ddd
13 Sep 2019, 12:26 PM
#26
avatar of ddd

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 12:03 PMVipper

Feel free to provide your video where you used them and them being broken.

As a commander slot compare them with assault grenadiers and you might find them lacking.


How should i compare doctrinal infantry and ability unlock for mainline infantry?
13 Sep 2019, 13:04 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 12:26 PMddd


How should i compare doctrinal infantry and ability unlock for mainline infantry?

The same OP compared molotov which ability unlock for mainline infantry with a doctrinal ability...

Bottom line is the Assault grenadier come with similar ability. As an ability "infiltration grenades" is not that great and non one would be pick either doctrine because of them.
13 Sep 2019, 13:06 PM
#28
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13659 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:04 PMVipper
As an ability "infiltration grenades" is not that great and non one would be pick either doctrine because of them.


That's pretty interesting description for probably most overused doctrinal ability for the faction if not for the game.

Spamming it as much as possible was as meta as CP5.
13 Sep 2019, 13:13 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:06 PMKatitof


That's pretty interesting description for probably most overused doctrinal ability for the faction if not for the game.

Spamming it as much as possible was as meta as CP5.

Are you claiming that special op was chosen because it give access to "infiltration grenades"?

I bet most people will tell you it was because of the C.Panther.

So "infiltration grenades" where used more times than "Command Panther", I suggest you inform the Moders so that they can nerf them instead of the "Command Panther".
ddd
13 Sep 2019, 13:23 PM
#30
avatar of ddd

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:13 PMVipper

Are you claiming that special op was chosen because it give access to "infiltration grenades"?

I bet most people will tell you it was because of the C.Panther.

So "infiltration grenades" where used more times than "Command Panther", I suggest you inform the Moders so that they can nerf them instead of the "Command Panther".


It was because of cpanther, infiltration nades and flares. From strongest to weakest. Doctrines have 5 abilities.

Infiltration nades were used more than cpanther, you really think that it is hard to use them 2 times per game (usually people call cpanther only once)? They should be both nerfed, you are right.
13 Sep 2019, 13:32 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:23 PMddd


It was because of cpanther, infiltration nades and flares. From strongest to weakest. Doctrines have 5 abilities.

Infiltration nades were used more than cpanther, you really think that it is hard to use them 2 times per game (usually people call cpanther only once)? They should be both nerfed, you are right.

Thank you for verifying my points.
13 Sep 2019, 13:44 PM
#32
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 418

"If you don't pick the doctrine for the ability, the ability must be fucking garbage."
13 Sep 2019, 14:07 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13659 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:13 PMVipper

Are you claiming that special op was chosen because it give access to "infiltration grenades"?

I bet most people will tell you it was because of the C.Panther.

So "infiltration grenades" where used more times than "Command Panther", I suggest you inform the Moders so that they can nerf them instead of the "Command Panther".


I'm claiming it was one of the most overused abilities of the whole faction, across all doctrines and stock abilities of the faction.
13 Sep 2019, 14:11 PM
#35
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 662

I remember someone said in the OKW thread that the changes to spec op was "too much" that if recon flare be touched, the whole doctrine will become trash.


You could literally strip this doctrine down to flares and cmd Panther and it would be the best teamgame okw doctrine for support play.
13 Sep 2019, 14:46 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 14:07 PMKatitof


Your reading comprehension seems to be as bad as your ability to grasp context when someone uses the same word to describe 2 completely different situations.

I'm claiming it was one of the most overused abilities of the whole faction, across all doctrines and stock abilities of the faction.

It wasn't really hard to understand point, but I've got to applaud to you as you managed to let it fly over your head.

Actually it is you have poor understanding of what quoting and replaying means.

I wrote:
"As an ability "infiltration grenades" is not that great and non one would be pick either doctrine because of them."

to which you quoted and responded:
jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2019, 13:06 PMKatitof


That's pretty interesting description for probably most overused doctrinal ability for the faction if not for the game.

Spamming it as much as possible was as meta as CP5.

So either you agree
or
you disagree and arbitrary claimed that "infiltration grenades" is "most overused doctrinal ability for the faction if not for the game" as argument that people choose the special OP commander because of "infiltration grenades", which inaccurate
or
You wanted to say something completely different and you should had not quote me in the first place.

In any case, I would suggest on focus on fixing your own problems understanding posts and quoting before giving advice to others.

On topic the ability saw extended use because it was available to number 1 picked commander and because it very cost efficient.
13 Sep 2019, 14:49 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6215 | Subs: 1

"If you don't pick the doctrine for the ability, the ability must be fucking garbage."

Thank for trying to derail yet another thread.

I suggest you open a dictionary and check the difference between "not that great" and "the ability must be fucking garbage". But we already aware that you use the term "garbage" rather loosely from your claim about the USF mortar.
13 Sep 2019, 15:08 PM
#38
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3099 | Subs: 1

Some things to keep in mind when comparing Infiltration Grenades to Molotovs (or any other stock grenades):

- they are a doctrinal ability that take up an entire slot by themselves. They are meant to be a very good and attractive choice;

- they have a significant animation delay before throwing compared to most other grenades (except vet 0 Molotov) that leaves the entire squad quite vulnerable to enemy fire (as they won't be able to return fire) and makes them quite easy to dodge when the enemy reacts on time.


Is that the official stance going forward? If it's doctrinal it needs to be more effecient than alternatives? Or is the official stance that Soviet abilities need to be over priced or underpowered compared to others? (oorah 2x the price of sprint, molotov the same price as throwing up to 5 grenades, medics locked in base exclusively but not given aoe heals like brit and usf medics)

A long animation hardly warrants the potential to, for only 20mu, wipe a garrison if it's something like an mg that can't get out in time. Abilities of similar capability would be the molotov, which also has a long animation and certainly not that much of a threat or the satchel, which also has a long animation, and a long timer, and over 2x the cost.

It's a little alarming to think that the design philosophy going forth is that we need things to defy balance to be attractive.

Keep in mind this commander now also has near sprint coupled with minimap invisibility ontop of uncounterable recon and cover defying close range mulcher stgs. It's a very powerful ability to be so cheap with the other abilities available.
13 Sep 2019, 15:34 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1887 | Subs: 3

Is that the official stance going forward? If it's doctrinal it needs to be more effecient than alternatives? Or is the official stance that Soviet abilities need to be over priced or underpowered compared to others?


My personal stance is that Infiltration Grenades having to be an attractive choice because they take up an entire commander ability slot on their own is one thing to consider when looking at their price. Like I stated above. I did not draw any conclusions about their new price being right or wrong.

One other thing to consider is that I would rather underadjust something when multiple things are being changed at once, to avoid potentially overbuffing or overnerfing that something, because the exact outcome of other changes is usually not entirely clear. The Command Panther change was a huge nerf for the commander, it wasn't clear what it would do to the popularity of the commander, so I (/we) did not want to throw in big nerfs to Infiltration Grenades and the Artillery Flares at the same time to avoid potentially signing a death sentence for the commander. If it becomes clear in the coming weeks/months that the commander is still very good / popular we can always consider further nerfs. Balancing isn't done overnight.
13 Sep 2019, 16:13 PM
#40
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 463

Infiltration nades were pretty much broken at 15 MUN.
They enabled OKW infantry to throw two grenades and especially Volks are very strong with them, since they are lacking that that high burst potential of a normal nade compared to almost all other mainlines. They can be thrown very effectively on retreat paths as well without much skill needed, as the spread and number of nades will ensure a hit.

But back to the original post: I would not really compare them to molotovs, since they have different function. A normal nade would be more suitable if we want wo compare the damage for MUN investment efficiency. Herr I'd say that 20 mun are alright, meybe 25, but that's up to debate.

Are they worth a commander slot? There are not many similar abilities like infiltration nades. I would not compare them to Assault Grenadiere, since getting Assault Grenadiere also forces you to sacrifice snares and other things. The closest is the USF molotov/rifle nade ability in my opinion.
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