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Poll: Raketenwerfer Change

Do Raketenwerfer need changes
Option Distribution Votes
89%
11%
Should we remove retreat option?
Option Distribution Votes
25%
75%
Should we keep the normal camo or we use the modded camo?
Option Distribution Votes
44%
56%
Should we make it a USF AT gun clone?
Option Distribution Votes
19%
81%
Should it get no terrain collide and accuracy buff?
Option Distribution Votes
62%
38%
What range shoule we buff it if we agree on remove retreat/camo/both performance it currently have in the game right now?
Option Distribution Votes
35%
29%
10%
26%
Should we make it have a gun shield?
Option Distribution Votes
40%
60%
Should we make it 5 man? (In context that we can't get a gun shield for it)
Option Distribution Votes
78%
22%
Total votes: 285
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
28 Aug 2019, 07:05 AM
#1
avatar of Boz_Hower

Posts: 28

I have seen a lot of mixed opinions about this unit so I compile and make a poll so see how the community thought about changes they fell proper on the Raketenwerfer

Also, this should help the mod team easier so see and change the unit

I invited all of you to have an actual civil debate in the comment, with proper reason and may even better, a stat for the unit

If you have any more that wanted me to add in, leave it below

My goal is to see what change the community wanted and possibly make it easier for people to grasp where the community stand on and easier for the mod team to balance out

-Rely because i have a replying problem - the website just keep stating "Post not saved, please try again"

I thought I could add more. Sorry about that

This is just a poll that I compile most common idea that I saw around the forum. I really wanted to see what people think on these change that being throw around a lot

>Should we keep the normal camo or we use the modded camo?

>yes
>no
Yeah sorry about that Yes mean keep, No mean modded

Those are not my idea, I have my own but I rather retain and not throw more fuel on the fire and just dream about it: Like 240mm USF shell can kill fully destroy arty gun :(
@Gbpirate @Sturmpanther
28 Aug 2019, 07:11 AM
#2
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 1065

I like the idea of a well-thought out poll but some of the questions you've got here aren't yes or no questions and there's no way to edit it after nor make certain questions not applicable based on previous answers (unless you add that option to each question manually).

If you really want to make a poll try using Google Drive's survey creator. It's pretty easy to use after dicking around with it for a little while.
28 Aug 2019, 08:53 AM
#3
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5433 | Subs: 32

Yeah your question-answers are not really working to each other.

And btw:
Should we make it have a gun shield?
This is sadly not code able for it :(

We all want that rakten get green cover but sadly not possible.
28 Aug 2019, 09:35 AM
#4
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

>Should we keep the normal camo or we use the modded camo?

>yes
>no
:snfPeter:
28 Aug 2019, 11:19 AM
#5
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

So two of the poll topics aren't even really relevant.

Gun shield are bugged and inconsistent. For all of the complaints about it not having a gun shield, the effective reality is that it does nothing.

The raketen already had its collision changed to match all other projectiles in the game (IIRC).

It's just really discouraging that half of the "issues" that people cite about the raketenwerfer are actually nonapplicable or technically nonexistant.
28 Aug 2019, 11:20 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13275 | Subs: 1

Imo there is no reason for different cemo behaviour between Soviet and OKW camo ATGs. The mechnics used should be the same.

In addition the unit needs faster reaction time, some times a vehicle pass by and the unit does not even fire.

Needs an veternacy overhaul and some bonuses when in garrison.
28 Aug 2019, 11:29 AM
#7
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1602 | Subs: 3

I don't play OKW much nor have I tested the Raketens in Cheatcommands much. Even then, I definitely miss a poll for aimtime reduction, which is currently excruciatingly bad.

Gun shield are bugged and inconsistent. For all of the complaints about it not having a gun shield, the effective reality is that it does nothing.


I know gunshields generally doesn't give green cover to crew, but aren't they able to "block" tank shells, saving the crew from OHK's?

The raketen already had its collision changed to match all other projectiles in the game (IIRC).


Doesn't the rocket spawn lower to the ground compared to other AT guns, making collisions with the ground more likely?
28 Aug 2019, 11:40 AM
#8
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

I know gunshields generally doesn't give green cover to crew, but aren't they able to "block" tank shells, saving the crew from OHK's?


Gunshields do protect against explosives (grenades) under certain circumstances (by applying the -50% damage reduction from green cover), which seemingly mostly has to do with the angle the grenade is fired/thrown from. Presumably this also applies to tank shell AOE (but I haven't tested it).

Tests with grenades:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/95402/okw-september-patch-discussion/post/768143


On top of that another issue with the lack of a gunshield is (I think) that the entire Raketen crew usually bunches up when the gun is around environmental cover (due to squad AI trying to move all the models into cover I guess) while regular ATG crews ignore environmental cover because they technically have their own (green) cover, and their 3rd and 4th spare models usually keep much better spacing. Raketens seem to be much more prone to one shot wipes (3-4 crew getting killed in one shot) than regular AT guns because of this.
28 Aug 2019, 15:24 PM
#9
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1905



Gunshields do protect against explosives (grenades) under certain circumstances (by applying the -50% damage reduction from green cover), which seemingly mostly has to do with the angle the grenade is fired/thrown from. Presumably this also applies to tank shell AOE (but I haven't tested it).

Tests with grenades:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/95402/okw-september-patch-discussion/post/768143


On top of that another issue with the lack of a gunshield is (I think) that the entire Raketen crew usually bunches up when the gun is around environmental cover (due to squad AI trying to move all the models into cover I guess) while regular ATG crews ignore environmental cover because they technically have their own (green) cover, and their 3rd and 4th spare models usually keep much better spacing. Raketens seem to be much more prone to one shot wipes (3-4 crew getting killed in one shot) than regular AT guns because of this.


It doesn't seem like it is getting any reduction for hits that land behind it. Some tanks like Tigers decrew USF 57mm's really quickly. The same thing would probably happen with a PAK40 and a Pershing but I haven't seen it since I mostly play 3's & 4's and few people use Pershings in those games.
28 Aug 2019, 15:27 PM
#10
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2759 | Subs: 4

I voted for 20 range buff because a 70 range raketen sounds very fair and balanced :)
28 Aug 2019, 19:09 PM
#11
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

I voted for 20 range buff because a 70 range raketen sounds very fair and balanced :)

It is, you see, because if you look at the stats, the raketen is the lowest damage and lowest accuracy AT gun while also having low pen. This is made worse by its lack of a gun shield which is a massive factor and the fact that the projectile hits terrain and world objects, something no other projectile in the game suffers from. I suggest we replace it with the pak38, which would use the 17 pounder model already in the game and have it recolored to differentiate it.
28 Aug 2019, 21:58 PM
#12
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

It simply has to meet 2 of these conditions. (Maybe more but these are conditions I can think of at the moment).


1.- It is actually a supportive AT gun rather than its current designed recon unit (trash at AT support as it was with its cheesy camo)

2.- Simply not frustrating to use.


Just make it like any other AT gun in game since they are simply well designed.

29 Aug 2019, 02:35 AM
#13
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1


It is, you see, because if you look at the stats, the raketen is the lowest damage and lowest accuracy AT gun while also having low pen. This is made worse by its lack of a gun shield which is a massive factor and the fact that the projectile hits terrain and world objects, something no other projectile in the game suffers from. I suggest we replace it with the pak38, which would use the 17 pounder model already in the game and have it recolored to differentiate it.


I think the PaK38 would be a great solution, except that the 17 pounder is much bigger than the PaK38, so substituting the model just wouldn’t look right.

However, what if we used the Soviet light AT gun, recolored gray, and called it the PaK-36? It would require some modification to its stats and cost and generally be very asymmetrical, but it could work.

Then, you make the Rakettenwerfer doctrinal and leave it as it currently is, cheesy and gimmicky, but locked to a doctrine (maybe fortifications doctrine).

The other idea would be to rework the Rakettenwerfer AND add the PaK36 BOTH nondoctrinally.

The Rak could be rebalanced as a mid range, high damage, high penetration unit that has a 6 man crew, no retreat ability, but keeps its revised stealth (the no movement but can rotate version) but given at Vet 0. This would be an anti heavy tank AT gun that has a slow rate of fire but almost always hits and penetrates a heavy tank.

Then the new PaK36 would be like the Soviet M-42 it’s cloned from, a good anti light vehicle unit that can support against infantry with HE rounds, but doesn’t scale well against heavy tanks.

This would keep the unique asymmetrical aspect of the OKW AT units, but allows them to have more power against specific targets.
29 Aug 2019, 03:56 AM
#14
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 716

I think in test mod 1.2 is balance……maybe allowed move when ambush at Vet3 will better
29 Aug 2019, 04:11 AM
#15
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2



I think the PaK38 would be a great solution, except that the 17 pounder is much bigger than the PaK38, so substituting the model just wouldn’t look right.



It was ironic :clap:

Your first hint was "70 range AT gun would be balanced"

Also, unfortunately, Relic (so far) has shown no interest in even recoloring models (and I doubt that will change in the near future), so all "reuse this model and reskin it" requests will at most ever be "reuse this model as it is" :(
29 Aug 2019, 11:36 AM
#16
avatar of GI John 412

Posts: 495 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2019, 04:11 AMKasarov


It was ironic :clap:

Your first hint was "70 range AT gun would be balanced"

Also, unfortunately, Relic (so far) has shown no interest in even recoloring models (and I doubt that will change in the near future), so all "reuse this model and reskin it" requests will at most ever be "reuse this model as it is" :(


Lol, well I guess I walked into that. I try to take things at face value on here since so many of our members speak English as a second language and might not pick up on subtle jokes, but that also makes me an easy target for the very same.

I didn’t know about the inability to recolor models though. That’s too bad. I thought it wouldn’t be too hard since different vehicle skins are so common. You’d think a retextured M-42 as a PaK36 would be an obvious thing to do no matter how it is implemented.
29 Aug 2019, 13:09 PM
#17
avatar of Hater

Posts: 493

Should we keep the normal camo or we use the modded camo?
Yes

:lol:

For me, everything always was fine about raken except accuracy vs lights and overall survivability.
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