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OKW September patch discussion

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21 Aug 2019, 03:55 AM
#321
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



The KT can't be a "go-to thing in every single game" because of it's very high price and teching requirements. Many games don't even last long enough for the KT to arrive.

What exactly is it that is supposed to make the KT a viable alternative? It's not it's AI because the P4 and Ostwind are better, it's not it's AT because the Jagdtiger and Panther are better, so surley it must be it's status as a generalist but what's the point of an expensive generalist if it doesnt even outperform the medium generalist at AI?

It's AT can't be improved because it's already very good and it's speed keeps it from securing it's own kills especially now that blitz was moved to vet 3 so it needs better AI to be a generalist worth it's cost.

Right now the KT is a slow veterancy sponge that can push away armor but not kill it because speed and only has regular lever AI, it's simply not worth the risk of saving up for it especially since it can be flanked so easily because of it's incredibly slow turret rotation and has extreme difficulty escaping. I appreciate that they lowered Spearhead to Vet 1 because the suppression is great but it either needs betted AI to perform better as a generalist or it needs a bit better turret rotation or speed to keep it from being flanked as easily.


the KTs strength is in its ability to push back infantry while pushing back tanks at the same time.... it might not be viable in 1v1s where mobility is key but it sure is hell viable in teamgames where artillery saturation and AT saturation force lighter tanks to suffer much greater attrition
21 Aug 2019, 04:05 AM
#322
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

PLEASE, give heavy crush back to sturmtiger?
21 Aug 2019, 07:47 AM
#323
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



i know you were, which is why i did the math to include soviet t1. and my point stands, the unit cost is significantly higher and hell, even the teching cost is comparable to the cost of the kuble, theres no reason it shouldn't gulp it down, especially when you consider the power difference that 10mp in the same tier allows for the additional 120mp and 25 fuel are absolutely justification.

That is simply misleading, one could add the unlock cost to AEC but adding to the m3 is simply untrue.

And again my point is not that M3A3 should not win, it simply should not be able to do so effectively leaving almost no chance to kubel to escape.


the speed compounds throughout the early game though. being able to send your sturm and first volks to Bee line the enemy cut off while the kuble can zip around and back cap with less down time makes a difference, add in being able to cause bleed without taking any if it does run into something, or being able to quickly respond to even the other side of the map if say combat engies try and decap are very powerful. volks are just infinitly better investmen because they havnt a downside to write about for their price and will scale all game long. but thats not a kuble problem...

also, even in crossing in the woods, a volks kuble build will have sturms, volks and a kuble on the opposite cut off WITH terretory capped before a soviet player even has the resources to build a scout car. thats a lot of fire power to bring to bear, especially given the speed that the kuble can move on past that and grab ground after the initial clash.

Yet kubels see little action and MOD want to increase the use of it. Decreasing the built will help and will even cause less issues since the OKW firepower at start is being toned down.
21 Aug 2019, 07:49 AM
#324
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Consistency with other airborne? The others do get choices, so maybe falls should get another upgrade path




Why are you comparing smgs and carbines to fg42s? You're still not making any sense...

Patch falls are cheaper than both Paras and commandos, and get 2 free fg42s

As I have pointed out already actually there is nothing consistent Fall and Paras.
Free weapon upgrades are available to infiltration units and not to airdropped units.
Neither is K98 an elite weapon like Paras carbine.

There is little reason for Fall to start with only K98.
21 Aug 2019, 09:20 AM
#325
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

Everyone is saying that you should pick your fight. But the thing is Falls camo will open up once you step out of cover and even a single hit or random mortar AOE will prevent achieving this task. Give it the commando camo without the ambush bonus and they will be fine.
21 Aug 2019, 09:37 AM
#326
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 09:20 AMJilet
Everyone is saying that you should pick your fight. But the thing is Falls camo will open up once you step out of cover and even a single hit or random mortar AOE will prevent achieving this task. Give it the commando camo without the ambush bonus and they will be fine.

I would say the exact opposite. If they are an dropped unit lose the camo and reduce the price since they currently overpriced compared to paras.

If there is a need for camo it can be separate weapon upgrade that could includ short/mid range weapons like the Mp-40/Mp-44.
21 Aug 2019, 09:58 AM
#327
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Falls are pretty shit the way they are.

The camo is just a disguise without real function, same goes for the Luchs but I am going to stick to the topic.


Falls fail often miserably because its accuracy is not good enough, being worse off than most other Axis infantry. Falls accuracy is even worse than Ostruppen, lol.

Even the DPS is worse, than other users. Short, Medium, Long, not good really in any currently.

That is how shitty they are. There is simply other no others words to describe it.


Of course there is other factors that describe its performance but I believe accuracy is its main issue.


I would say remove some of its the smoke grenade for better camo effect, such as accuracy bonus ambush. Might help compensate for its lacking accuracy and make it yet viable.

Camo accuracy boost, through ambush, is something Falls really need.

OR

Just give them in general focus fire, shooting 1 model at the time to compensate for its terrible accuracy is something they could have instead. It would finally make them viable.
21 Aug 2019, 10:04 AM
#328
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



sure only allies should have A move inf play... and than nerf volks pls.

And why are they not supposed to beat theam ? who said this ? some allied fan boy?

I feel Luftwaffe will become a top 3 OKW commander anyway

Yeah but why ? not because its so good. or the nerf/buff had change anything ... they still dying like flys.


Good luck a moving shocks. They will stand there shooting at longe range with no effect what so ever.

Shocks are designed to be able close the distance. The are worthless at long range. 360 mp that cant reach its target while not having coma or ambush abilities is just a waste of mp.
Thank god they dont have sprint and are not 0 cp. Then your complaint would be somewhat valid.

And the volks nerf is almost not noticable. From 250mp to 260mp. A wooping 10 mp increase. Volks stil are to cost effecient. Why get antyhing else when a dirt cheap squad with self heal can do it as well.
21 Aug 2019, 11:43 AM
#329
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

@vipper even without tech the M3a1 is significantly more expensive. The fact that it requires tech while the Kuble does not is just additional justification.

Also you yourself felt the DSHK was OP, but nobody knew because maxim spam was meta. Sometimes a unit can be fine (or OP) but we don't know because it doesn't see action as there is an easier option. As long as volks are the most attractive option since forever any way to make the Kuble more attractive means making it too strong for a 210mo no tech starting unit that can be turned into fuel when it dies...
21 Aug 2019, 12:12 PM
#330
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

@vipper even without tech the M3a1 is significantly more expensive. The fact that it requires tech while the Kuble does not is just additional justification.

Again M3A3 should win vs kubel it should not annihilate it, the M3A3 is an cost efficient even if it does not annihilate kubels. Point here is that kubel's window of opportunity is simply too small it becomes obsolete as soon as the enemy decides to built a car which can be 30 secs after the kubel hit the field. The current changes are simply not enough to make kubel more attractive.


Also you yourself felt the DSHK was OP, but nobody knew because maxim spam was meta. Sometimes a unit can be fine (or OP) but we don't know because it doesn't see action as there is an easier option. As long as volks are the most attractive option since forever any way to make the Kuble more attractive means making it too strong for a 210mo no tech starting unit that can be turned into fuel when it dies...

Kubel is far from being OP and I have not used the "it is not used so it must be bad" argument, actually it a MOD team that want to be used more. Its decent unit with a small window of opportunity and very map depended. Imo the best way to make it more attractive,is it to increase the window of opportunity and even nerf the performance if one has to.
21 Aug 2019, 13:33 PM
#331
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

Improving the kubels speed and rotation a bit will help it get away from m3a3's. But in one of the old balance previews kubels had the ability to camo and steal resources, that was a very nice idea and could give the kubel some use in the late game.
21 Aug 2019, 14:15 PM
#332
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

They don't have to start with kar98ks. I think they just don't want them to start with fg42s
21 Aug 2019, 14:52 PM
#333
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784

Just make Falls a 5-man squad with 3 Volks k98s and two FG-42. Same RA. Reduce the reinforce cost to 30/33. Boom. 300/330MP airborne deployable infantry squad with all their abilities and camo but no quad BARs BS.

Falls become one of the least squishy squads in the game and keep concentrated DPS and their ambush camo, abilities etc, but aren't terminators designed to replace obers and kill everything on the map. Everyone wins. No further upgrades besides maybe a 60muni 40muni(?) triple volks MP-40 upgrade (definitely not stormtrooper MP-40s). Said upgrade would however prevent picking up BARs and LMGs and whatnot.

Anyone who thinks such a 5-man camo squad with 0.85 0.83 base RA, a snare, frag grenade, smoke grenade, and two free BARs would be useless is also either kidding themselves or just wants Falls to be better Obers or something.

EDIT: I think Falls reinforcement time should also be reduced a bit, or at least that it should be during the ability which allows them to reinforce anywhere on the field. Presently that bonus ability really doesn't benefit them that much considering how slow to reinforce they are.


Just do this for Falls.
21 Aug 2019, 14:54 PM
#334
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

They don't have to start with kar98ks. I think they just don't want them to start with fg42s

The point I have made is that unit is not consistent with paras and is simply is inferior to them. More expensive, less entities, easier to wiped during drop, no demo charges and standard weapons instead of elite make the weak when entering the field.

Imo OKW fall should be redesign as infiltration unit since it fits OKW thematically, less overlap with obers and currently OKW do not have access to such unit.

The airdropped Fall can be moved to Luft Ostheer doctrine and be modeled after Paras with 5 or 6 models and 3k98+2 FG42 as an upgrade and serve as "elite" infatry for Ostheer.
21 Aug 2019, 14:55 PM
#335
avatar of Stark

Posts: 626 | Subs: 1

1. Steal resources is a great idea for a Kubel. Even though you manage to keep your kubel alive at crazy vet 3 or higher it can easily die to a 1 volley of enemy AT or infantry blob so you don't know what to do with him. Simply Late game isn't a place for a Kubelwagen so new ability would help a lot.

2. From a teamgame perspective Lufftwafe isn't a temping commander choice. Yes, it give you strafe but Overwatch commander has it too and it's way better. Let's take aside Falls itself with all there pros and cons there isn't much usefull stuff in this commander. Honestly think that removing defensive structures from a commander and replacing it with something else would work much better. In current form I don't think that spliting fg42 at two stages is a right change. More ajustments are needed. Honestly speaking, another utility - so upgrade with mp40 which make them more like a commandos unit could be a good direction.
21 Aug 2019, 15:28 PM
#336
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:54 PMVipper

The point I have made is that unit is not consistent with paras and is simply is inferior to them. More expensive, less entities, easier to wiped during drop, no demo charges and standard weapons instead of elite make the weak when entering the field.

Imo OKW fall should be redesign as infiltration unit since it fits OKW thematically, less overlap with obers and currently OKW do not have access to such unit.


This.
+1
21 Aug 2019, 15:53 PM
#337
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:54 PMVipper

The point I have made is that unit is not consistent with paras and is simply is inferior to them. More expensive, less entities, easier to wiped during drop, no demo charges and standard weapons instead of elite make the weak when entering the field.


Yeah you've made your point clear. I am just trying to explain Relic/balance teams reasoning. I have no particular attachment to any idea about falls
21 Aug 2019, 16:12 PM
#338
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Yeah you've made your point clear. I am just trying to explain Relic/balance teams reasoning. I have no particular attachment to any idea about falls


I see little reasoning.

The unit was initially design as an infiltration unit that was was then changed into an airdropped unit without actually being redesign and thus currently has an identity crisis.

It should simply get a role (airdropped, infiltration, mainline, elite,...)and be properly designed around that role.

Further more VG combat bonuses are not that impressive either.
21 Aug 2019, 18:10 PM
#339
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

With regards the falls situation, what if they just come with the 4xFg42 as the previous patch but now they can be upgraded with 2 'scoped' FG42 to increase their dps.

I think falls have a unique but wonky design, they are more like ambush commandos compared to other variants and thats why they are so fragile.
21 Aug 2019, 19:42 PM
#340
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

I like Falls their current design, please don't butcher them to become another A-move unit. The balance team is heading in the right direction, they just need some minor tweaks and they'Il be just right.
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