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Soviet September patch discussion

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15 Aug 2019, 13:30 PM
#141
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711


Because that isn't the only fix. It would simply make the deathloop even deadlier. Unfortunately the 6 men have to be accounted for when balancing the unit because removal would be detrimental because of the death loop.

Unless you can bolster durability in another way like damage modifiers or perhaps to think outside the box with something like increased range (longe range means further from the fight means enemy has to walk further under fire to frontally assault the maxim means they might actually eat dirt before being in grenade range) but imo the best way to make it less attractive to spam would be improving it, increasing damage AND build time, while also making cons more attractive so that they an fill in the holes that slow maxim production brimgs


What if we also increase cost to 300MP? But make normal arc like vickers and mg-42 have? Increased cost, increased time to build, tweake stats to make it worth to build.
Spammable only cheap units. If your unit expensive, but workable, it didn't able to spam. Better have 1 HMG that works, that have cheap HMG that don't work at all.
15 Aug 2019, 13:31 PM
#142
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

just make the gunner untargetable on retreat until its reduced to 1 man then make it a 4 man MG with mg42 or vickers stats...
15 Aug 2019, 14:01 PM
#143
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 13:30 PMMaret


What if we also increase cost to 300MP? But make normal arc like vickers and mg-42 have? Increased cost, increased time to build, tweake stats to make it worth to build.
Spammable only cheap units. If your unit expensive, but workable, it didn't able to spam. Better have 1 HMG that works, that have cheap HMG that don't work at all.

I myself am a fan of making it more expensive and yknow.... Work. As is right now you need to spam maxims because a single one doesn't cut it.

Additionally maybe instead of lowering the fuel cost of t2 some sort of incentive that buffs cons perhaps would be a better way to make it appealing.
Ideally, cons are your meat, but penals and maxims help the cons operate either through controlling the enemy, or crushing them respectively. Neither SHOULD be making up the bulk of your army but there to push the line of pierce it.
15 Aug 2019, 14:36 PM
#144
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 12:18 PMgbem


doesnt make it any more difficult to wipe... how about playing as sov T2 soo you can see how people pull off maxim wipes on you soo u can understand how easy it is to wipe a maxim?


I know how easy it is to wipe a maxim. Does this change the fact that 6 men everything is too much, including earlier 7 men cons.



jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 12:18 PMgbem

would it be possible to make the maxim gunner untargettable during retreat until its brought down to 1 man? that would most certainly fix the deathloop


I believe there is no way to fix it due to the way the engine and coding works. That is what I remember some modders etc explaining.



jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 12:18 PMgbem

with far superior RA and higher DPS unless in cover


Sure, but grens die like flies due to excessive explosive aoe in almost any game. 4 models are too squishy for mainline infantry. Unless of course they are as tough as tommies are.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 12:18 PMgbem

penals need to be reworked


Especially if we have earlier 7 men cons.


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 12:18 PMgbem

HAHA NO


It is to prove a point, that Soviets wil become extremely strong if patch goes live like it is now. Good luck fighting that with 4 men squads that die to anything and have to very careful as soon as they lose 1 model.


Whatever I do after this, it won't let me quote, tried 20 times. Whatever
15 Aug 2019, 14:49 PM
#145
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

conscript changes will still mean nothing... the real reason why ost gets stomped is the prevalence of penals and guards abuse...

now i have no idea why this wasnt touched at the patch... but there is no need to complain about 7 man cons... that really isnt the problem here
15 Aug 2019, 15:53 PM
#146
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783


Because that isn't the only fix. It would simply make the deathloop even deadlier. Unfortunately the 6 men have to be accounted for when balancing the unit because removal would be detrimental because of the death loop.

Unless you can bolster durability in another way like damage modifiers or perhaps to think outside the box with something like increased range (longe range means further from the fight means enemy has to walk further under fire to frontally assault the maxim means they might actually eat dirt before being in grenade range) but imo the best way to make it less attractive to spam would be improving it, increasing damage AND build time, while also making cons more attractive so that they an fill in the holes that slow maxim production brimgs


Maybe improving range and damage instead may be an interesting different route. Might reduce the possibility of spamming if it were too efficient its suppression.


The suppression should not be that overwhelming for a crew that strong.

If we talk about the USF 50cal, it is perfectly designed as it should because it is 4 man and its features that make it good and balanced.

It would not make sense for Maxim to have suppression nearly as good if it has 6 man because that would too powerful of course.

It should instead maybe get improvements on damage and range only. Just to make it more lethal than as it now stands. Definitely would improve the unit.

That would be a good change.

15 Aug 2019, 16:02 PM
#147
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

KW1 hull-down is very bad made, I mean the animation.

Why not use Ostheers hull-down animation, but make it automatic?
15 Aug 2019, 16:29 PM
#148
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Maybe improving range and damage instead may be an interesting different route. Might reduce the possibility of spamming if it were too efficient its suppression.


The suppression should not be that overwhelming for a crew that strong.

If we talk about the USF 50cal, it is perfectly designed as it should because it is 4 man and its features that make it good and balanced.

It would not make sense for Maxim to have suppression nearly as good if it has 6 man because that would too powerful of course.

It should instead maybe get improvements on damage and range only. Just to make it more lethal than as it now stands. Definitely would improve the unit.

That would be a good change.



The way I see it is the 6 man crew is a bonus of the Soviet, they an pay for it if they need to via higher no cost getting the unit, but the uniy shouldnt REQUIRE a 6 man crew to function. It doesn't have to be cost effecient but it HAS to work because Supression is a core mechanic in the game and it's vital in stopping blobs and holding.


15 Aug 2019, 17:42 PM
#149
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



The way I see it is the 6 man crew is a bonus of the Soviet, they an pay for it if they need to via higher no cost getting the unit, but the uniy shouldnt REQUIRE a 6 man crew to function. It doesn't have to be cost effecient but it HAS to work because Supression is a core mechanic in the game and it's vital in stopping blobs and holding.




Then the angle of fire has to be nerfed again, it becomes too potential.
15 Aug 2019, 17:47 PM
#150
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

In light of the Rear Echelon change, I think the Combat Engineers deserve the same treatment.

Their Mosins deal 16 damage with low accuracy. The damage should be lowered to 12, like Conscripts, and accuracy raised to something more reasonable. Their weapon isn't as insanely inaccurate as RE carbines, but it would be nice for consistency at least.
15 Aug 2019, 17:59 PM
#151
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Aug 2019, 23:11 PMgbem


The deathloop alone makes it have 4 man survivability.... even when it was the best MG ingame it was never more survivable than 4 man mgs thanks to the deathloop


Implying that the death loop makes its equivalent in availability to 4 man team is false. Death loop only applies when it retreats and not to things like artillery.
15 Aug 2019, 18:02 PM
#152
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

In light of the Rear Echelon change, I think the Combat Engineers deserve the same treatment.

Their Mosins deal 16 damage with low accuracy. The damage should be lowered to 12, like Conscripts, and accuracy raised to something more reasonable. Their weapon isn't as insanely inaccurate as RE carbines, but it would be nice for consistency at least.


+1 to this. Idk about the damage numbers, but CE need consistancy a lot more than REs did.
15 Aug 2019, 18:07 PM
#153
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Implying that the death loop makes its equivalent in availability to 4 man team is false. Death loop only applies when it retreats and not to things like artillery.


All it takes is one grenade, one mortar, one shot from a tank that does enough hp damage to start the deathloop. Retreat or not.
You think just moving it normaly under fire makes it so that the deathloop doesnt happen?

Retreating or just moving once the gunner drops the loop begins.

I am for trying increased range smaller arc and current supression to see if it can fix being nuked by nades frontaly.
15 Aug 2019, 18:10 PM
#154
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2181 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 13:30 PMMaret


What if we also increase cost to 300MP? But make normal arc like vickers and mg-42 have? Increased cost, increased time to build, tweake stats to make it worth to build.
Spammable only cheap units. If your unit expensive, but workable, it didn't able to spam. Better have 1 HMG that works, that have cheap HMG that don't work at all.


a very bad idea, increasing Maxim to 300mp will make T2 completely unplayable.
15 Aug 2019, 19:27 PM
#155
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



All it takes is one grenade, one mortar, one shot from a tank that does enough hp damage to start the deathloop. Retreat or not.
You think just moving it normaly under fire makes it so that the deathloop doesnt happen?


And the above can as likely wipe the 4 man squad. Loosing 3 men on a MG42 and forcing a retreat is a worse situation than losing 3 men with a maxim and forcing a retreat. If a model dies on the retreating maxim, it might get stuck in the deathloop and the unit may die. If a model dies on the retreating MG42, the unit will die.

15 Aug 2019, 20:08 PM
#156
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

@Sander you've squished in RET accuracy change to increase their reliability instead of them being RNG squad, could the same be done to CEs? Its impossible to vet them up without flamer, all the other engies have very consistent DPS in comparison.
15 Aug 2019, 21:59 PM
#157
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



And the above can as likely wipe the 4 man squad. Loosing 3 men on a MG42 and forcing a retreat is a worse situation than losing 3 men with a maxim and forcing a retreat. If a model dies on the retreating maxim, it might get stuck in the deathloop and the unit may die. If a model dies on the retreating MG42, the unit will die.



If you loose 3 models in a single strike thats rng or the crew is clumped up. So yes bad for any mg.

The maxim is naded frontaly the most out of any mg by a single squad. Because it cant supress in time often enough to stop them throwing the nade.
A problem wich both mg42 and 34 do not have vs a single squad wich attacks frontaly ever.

The added fact of the deathloop means even with 6 models who will most likely drop like flies after the nade do not have a teleporting mg to the surving squad members once they move or retreat.
If the gunner is killed during moving or retreat the deathloop will start when he dies period. Its just a matter of having it attacked by any inf or vehicle with mg,s to keep the gunner dying trying to pick up the gun. Wich is not much effort at all.
The mg42/34 do have a teleporting mg and thus will escape where the maxim will get wiped.

These 2 facts alone mean that even with 6 men the maxim is the most wiped and most easely wiped of any mg.

People who claim otherwise need to come back down to earth.
15 Aug 2019, 23:02 PM
#158
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

With Maxim-buff a 5men squad will be large enough.

Maxim blobs become popular at the moment again, even without changes.
15 Aug 2019, 23:15 PM
#159
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



a very bad idea, increasing Maxim to 300mp will make T2 completely unplayable.

Not necessarily. Again, assuming cons get a look at, namely a price reduction, say 220mp and then the actual cost would remain unchanged, but multi maxim strats would become costly. You would need to balance it with cons or lose the whole map.

Also maxims made functional is required of course.
16 Aug 2019, 00:06 AM
#160
avatar of 13greed47

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Aug 2019, 23:24 PMJilet


Falls. would have a word with you.



infiltration commando. would have a word with you.
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